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> In 2011, the average age at which a biomedical scientist gets their first R01 grant to establish their independent career as a PI is 42 This is ridiculous! T

> In 2011, the average age at which a biomedical scientist gets their first R01 grant to establish their independent career as a PI is 42 This is ridiculous! The best researchers won't be much better at 45 than 25, so it's just wasting 20 years getting "experience" and moving up the ladder. But by nature of getting that experience, they're going to give up on actual innovation.

dagw 2y ago
The best researchers won't be much better at 45 than 25 To get great research done you have to be great manager who can prioritise time and resources, balance a budget, forge connections with other researchers, get the most out of the people working for you and know where and how to get even more funding to keep the research going after the initial round of research dries up. Those 20 years might not make you a better 'scientist', but hopefully they will make you better at all the other 'soft' skills that are required for successful scientific research. At 25 you should be focusing on the science and doing research and not have to bother with all that 'crap'.
- programjames 2y ago
  Getting other people to do research isn't doing research. You're misattributing who does what.
  - dagw 2y ago
    Very little research can be done by just one person working alone. A huge part of 'doing research' involves getting other people to do research in support of your research.
    - programjames 2y ago
      You're talking past me. I understand that getting research done requires social infrastructure. Do you understand that I don't consider that research?
      - fragmede 2y ago
        Right, the "Did Steve jobs make the iPhone?" conundrum.
        derbOac 2y ago
        I've thought a lot about the analogy with Steve Jobs and the iphone, but it's also a bit misleading to me because academics doesn't even credit things the same way as in business. The iphone is made by Apple after all, and we can get into discussions about how much credit Apple even deserves for the iphone or whether Steve Jobs deserves credit for whatever portion of that we give. But in academics we still act as if it's just "Joan Smith" doing their research and hiring people to get things done, and acting as if they're brilliant for doing so, when in fact many other people probably have the exact same ideas, or happened to be in the right place in the right time, or know the right people in the grant agency, or whatever; or their grad students or postdocs are the ones with the ideas, etc. etc. I keep thinking about a colleague of mine who, whenever someone like a grad student would have an original idea, but required his grant money or whatever to pay for it, he would take credit on papers saying "ideas are a dime a dozen; it's the work involved getting it to happen that matters." But if there was a paper that was the result of a relatively unoriginal idea that required a lot of RA, grad student, and postdoc labor, it was always "it's the idea that counts, and not whoever follows through with it." I feel like that's the atmosphere in academics now.
jltsiren 2y ago
Research is very labor intensive. It's easy to reach a point where the lack of time is a bigger obstacle to pursuing your ideas than the cost of pursuing them. Which is why you need to apply for grants to hire people to do your work. At 25, you are likely pursuing somebody else's ideas, because you have not proven yourself yet. At 35, you should be pursuing your own ideas, but it often gets delayed to 45, because taxpayers are stingy with their money.

dagw 2y ago

The best researchers won't be much better at 45 than 25 To get great research done you have to be great manager who can prioritise time and resources, balance a budget, forge connections with other researchers, get the most out of the people working for you and know where and how to get even more funding to keep the research going after the initial round of research dries up. Those 20 years might not make you a better 'scientist', but hopefully they will make you better at all the other 'soft' skills that are required for successful scientific research. At 25 you should be focusing on the science and doing research and not have to bother with all that 'crap'.

programjames 2y ago
Getting other people to do research isn't doing research. You're misattributing who does what.
- dagw 2y ago
  Very little research can be done by just one person working alone. A huge part of 'doing research' involves getting other people to do research in support of your research.
  - programjames 2y ago
    You're talking past me. I understand that getting research done requires social infrastructure. Do you understand that I don't consider that research?
    - fragmede 2y ago
      Right, the "Did Steve jobs make the iPhone?" conundrum.
      - derbOac 2y ago
        I've thought a lot about the analogy with Steve Jobs and the iphone, but it's also a bit misleading to me because academics doesn't even credit things the same way as in business. The iphone is made by Apple after all, and we can get into discussions about how much credit Apple even deserves for the iphone or whether Steve Jobs deserves credit for whatever portion of that we give. But in academics we still act as if it's just "Joan Smith" doing their research and hiring people to get things done, and acting as if they're brilliant for doing so, when in fact many other people probably have the exact same ideas, or happened to be in the right place in the right time, or know the right people in the grant agency, or whatever; or their grad students or postdocs are the ones with the ideas, etc. etc. I keep thinking about a colleague of mine who, whenever someone like a grad student would have an original idea, but required his grant money or whatever to pay for it, he would take credit on papers saying "ideas are a dime a dozen; it's the work involved getting it to happen that matters." But if there was a paper that was the result of a relatively unoriginal idea that required a lot of RA, grad student, and postdoc labor, it was always "it's the idea that counts, and not whoever follows through with it." I feel like that's the atmosphere in academics now.

jltsiren 2y ago

Research is very labor intensive. It's easy to reach a point where the lack of time is a bigger obstacle to pursuing your ideas than the cost of pursuing them. Which is why you need to apply for grants to hire people to do your work. At 25, you are likely pursuing somebody else's ideas, because you have not proven yourself yet. At 35, you should be pursuing your own ideas, but it often gets delayed to 45, because taxpayers are stingy with their money.