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If that was the goal (was it? I have not seen anyone say something like that) but if it was, then they should share the money too. Manhattan can't take all the

by ars 2y ago

If that was the goal (was it? I have not seen anyone say something like that) but if it was, then they should share the money too. Manhattan can't take all the money and shift all the expenses to New Jersey.

woodruffw 2y ago
It's NY State, not Manhattan. Neither NYC nor any individual borough "sees" any of the money from congestion pricing; it's handled at the state level. But for the state, certainly they can: it's state roads and state transit infrastructure, maintained and paid for by the state. NY didn't tell NJ to kneecap NJT's budget[1], or to develop car-dependent cities and suburbs. [1]: https://www.nj.com/news/2024/04/nj-transit-study-targets-600m-in-budget-cuts-expansion-and-reform.html https://www.nj.com/news/2024/04/nj-transit-study-targets-600...
- leetnewb 2y ago
  NY State collects billions of tax dollars every year from NJ residents that work in New York. Every mass transit NJ commuter to NYC is subsidized by NJ and subsidizes the NYS budget. That structural dynamic, in effect, kneecaps NJ and by virtue NJT's budget.
  - nobody9999 2y ago
    >NY State collects billions of tax dollars every year from NJ residents that work in New York. And NJ collects billions of tax dollars every year from NY residents that work in New Jersey[0] [0] https://www.sapling.com/8676392/taxes-city-work-new-jersey https://www.sapling.com/8676392/taxes-city-work-new-jersey
    - leetnewb 2y ago
      I don't see anything in that link which indicates the total value of taxes paid by NYS residents to NJ or the net. That said, I think it only takes a casual observation of bridge, tunnel, and mass transit hubs during rush hours that illustrate the balance. The overwhelming majority of "human capital" flows into NYC for work, not out, which should reasonably predict the difference in tax collections on non-residents between states.
  - woodruffw 2y ago
    Framing it as a one-sided collection is a little silly, given that NJ residents driving into NYC are (1) generally affluent suburbanites from bedroom communities, and (2) living in NJ in part to avoid city taxes. NJ isn't exactly a cheap state either in terms of taxation, but it's also one of the most affluent in the country. It's hard to believe that NY's payroll tax can be unilaterally blamed for NJ's inability to maintain and further develop NJT. (This is besides the larger contradiction, which is that NJ would have ~no taxes to collect on these residents at all, were it not for NYC's proximity.)
    - leetnewb 2y ago
      Again, every NJT commuter to NYC from NJ is subsidized by NJ to earn money in NYC and pay taxes to NYS. NJ's subsidization of NJT reduces the number of car trips into Manhattan dramatically. NJ commuters to NYC/NYS pay income tax to NYS and virtually nothing to NJ. The balance of payments deficit to NYS from NJ is in the range of $4 billion annually. I don't remember exactly what kind of operating subsidy NJT needs, but it's a heck of a lot less than $4 billion. NJ's entire state budget is around $50 billion. This is not a small, inconsequential issue, and downplaying its consequences is a little silly, to use your phrase. Also, NJ residents commuting to NYC don't just "do it to avoid city taxes". There are more commuters from NJ than there are open housing units in the 5 boroughs. NJ's housing stock and commuting infrastructure is a massive pressure relief valve on housing costs in NYC. Heck, NJ commuters would saturate every open housing unit in the boroughs, Long Island, Westchester, Southern Connecticut, and then some. Last thought. Manhattan is a massive job center in no small part because of its enormous access to talent inside and outside of the city - the outside the city talent uses mass transit on an enormous scale. NJ might look different without Manhattan there, but NYC would also look different if NJ wasn't there.
      - woodruffw 2y ago
        > Again, every NJT commuter to NYC from NJ is subsidized by NJ to earn money in NYC and pay taxes to NYS. NJ's subsidization of NJT reduces the number of car trips into Manhattan dramatically. Agreed, and agreed. But the "why" is important: NJ subsidizes NJT because it keeps people living in the state, which has its own taxes. I don't mean to come off as stridently anti-NJ here -- I agree that the two are mutually interdependent, and that an abstractly fair congestion pricing deal would include funding for NJT as well (and not just MTA). But that's only half the story: NJ's pols have dug themselves into an "over our dead bodies" position on any amount of congestion charging, have failed to move NJT/MTA collaborative projects forwards, have fought NYS tooth and nail over Gateway's funding[2], and torpedoed their own NJT modernization and expansion projects[1]. In the status quo, my perspective as a NYer is that the MTA is (shambolically) moving towards a better status quo, while NJ digs in on a position that's ultimately incompatible with the region's long term livability and economic growth. I can't think of a good reason why it should be this way since, even at a deficit, both sides ultimately benefit from better commuter networks. (On a related note: I checked the 2025 NJ budget[3], and there's a $6B surplus forecasted. So I don't wholly understand why NJ is considering cutting NJT's budget by $600M[4], or why maintenance has been deferred for so long.) [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Access_to_the_Region%27s_Core https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Access_to_the_Region%27s_Core [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gateway_Program_(Northeast_Corridor)#Funding_and_start_of_construction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gateway_Program_(Northeast_Cor... [3]: https://www.njlm.org/1280/2025-NJ-State-Budget https://www.njlm.org/1280/2025-NJ-State-Budget [4]: https://www.nj.com/news/2024/04/nj-transit-study-targets-600m-in-budget-cuts-expansion-and-reform.html https://www.nj.com/news/2024/04/nj-transit-study-targets-600...
kjkjadksj 2y ago
Considering the federal interstate project funds a lot of the roads in question in new jersey already I’d say bills are being paid sufficiently already. Not to mention that new jersey also benefits in countless other ways from proximity to nyc. If not for nyc what might the state look otherwise: Maine or Vermont? Nyc has afforded much already for the garden state.
mikeweiss 2y ago
This. I'm glad the current implementation has been cancelled solely because New Jersey, the neighboring state that will see a massive impact on their transit and infrastructure due to this wasn't going to see a single cent.

by ars 2y ago

woodruffw 2y ago

It's NY State, not Manhattan. Neither NYC nor any individual borough "sees" any of the money from congestion pricing; it's handled at the state level. But for the state, certainly they can: it's state roads and state transit infrastructure, maintained and paid for by the state. NY didn't tell NJ to kneecap NJT's budget[1], or to develop car-dependent cities and suburbs. [1]: https://www.nj.com/news/2024/04/nj-transit-study-targets-600m-in-budget-cuts-expansion-and-reform.html https://www.nj.com/news/2024/04/nj-transit-study-targets-600...

leetnewb 2y ago
NY State collects billions of tax dollars every year from NJ residents that work in New York. Every mass transit NJ commuter to NYC is subsidized by NJ and subsidizes the NYS budget. That structural dynamic, in effect, kneecaps NJ and by virtue NJT's budget.
- nobody9999 2y ago
  >NY State collects billions of tax dollars every year from NJ residents that work in New York. And NJ collects billions of tax dollars every year from NY residents that work in New Jersey[0] [0] https://www.sapling.com/8676392/taxes-city-work-new-jersey https://www.sapling.com/8676392/taxes-city-work-new-jersey
  - leetnewb 2y ago
    I don't see anything in that link which indicates the total value of taxes paid by NYS residents to NJ or the net. That said, I think it only takes a casual observation of bridge, tunnel, and mass transit hubs during rush hours that illustrate the balance. The overwhelming majority of "human capital" flows into NYC for work, not out, which should reasonably predict the difference in tax collections on non-residents between states.
- woodruffw 2y ago
  Framing it as a one-sided collection is a little silly, given that NJ residents driving into NYC are (1) generally affluent suburbanites from bedroom communities, and (2) living in NJ in part to avoid city taxes. NJ isn't exactly a cheap state either in terms of taxation, but it's also one of the most affluent in the country. It's hard to believe that NY's payroll tax can be unilaterally blamed for NJ's inability to maintain and further develop NJT. (This is besides the larger contradiction, which is that NJ would have ~no taxes to collect on these residents at all, were it not for NYC's proximity.)
  - leetnewb 2y ago
    Again, every NJT commuter to NYC from NJ is subsidized by NJ to earn money in NYC and pay taxes to NYS. NJ's subsidization of NJT reduces the number of car trips into Manhattan dramatically. NJ commuters to NYC/NYS pay income tax to NYS and virtually nothing to NJ. The balance of payments deficit to NYS from NJ is in the range of $4 billion annually. I don't remember exactly what kind of operating subsidy NJT needs, but it's a heck of a lot less than $4 billion. NJ's entire state budget is around $50 billion. This is not a small, inconsequential issue, and downplaying its consequences is a little silly, to use your phrase. Also, NJ residents commuting to NYC don't just "do it to avoid city taxes". There are more commuters from NJ than there are open housing units in the 5 boroughs. NJ's housing stock and commuting infrastructure is a massive pressure relief valve on housing costs in NYC. Heck, NJ commuters would saturate every open housing unit in the boroughs, Long Island, Westchester, Southern Connecticut, and then some. Last thought. Manhattan is a massive job center in no small part because of its enormous access to talent inside and outside of the city - the outside the city talent uses mass transit on an enormous scale. NJ might look different without Manhattan there, but NYC would also look different if NJ wasn't there.
    - woodruffw 2y ago
      > Again, every NJT commuter to NYC from NJ is subsidized by NJ to earn money in NYC and pay taxes to NYS. NJ's subsidization of NJT reduces the number of car trips into Manhattan dramatically. Agreed, and agreed. But the "why" is important: NJ subsidizes NJT because it keeps people living in the state, which has its own taxes. I don't mean to come off as stridently anti-NJ here -- I agree that the two are mutually interdependent, and that an abstractly fair congestion pricing deal would include funding for NJT as well (and not just MTA). But that's only half the story: NJ's pols have dug themselves into an "over our dead bodies" position on any amount of congestion charging, have failed to move NJT/MTA collaborative projects forwards, have fought NYS tooth and nail over Gateway's funding[2], and torpedoed their own NJT modernization and expansion projects[1]. In the status quo, my perspective as a NYer is that the MTA is (shambolically) moving towards a better status quo, while NJ digs in on a position that's ultimately incompatible with the region's long term livability and economic growth. I can't think of a good reason why it should be this way since, even at a deficit, both sides ultimately benefit from better commuter networks. (On a related note: I checked the 2025 NJ budget[3], and there's a $6B surplus forecasted. So I don't wholly understand why NJ is considering cutting NJT's budget by $600M[4], or why maintenance has been deferred for so long.) [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Access_to_the_Region%27s_Core https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Access_to_the_Region%27s_Core [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gateway_Program_(Northeast_Corridor)#Funding_and_start_of_construction https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gateway_Program_(Northeast_Cor... [3]: https://www.njlm.org/1280/2025-NJ-State-Budget https://www.njlm.org/1280/2025-NJ-State-Budget [4]: https://www.nj.com/news/2024/04/nj-transit-study-targets-600m-in-budget-cuts-expansion-and-reform.html https://www.nj.com/news/2024/04/nj-transit-study-targets-600...

kjkjadksj 2y ago

Considering the federal interstate project funds a lot of the roads in question in new jersey already I’d say bills are being paid sufficiently already. Not to mention that new jersey also benefits in countless other ways from proximity to nyc. If not for nyc what might the state look otherwise: Maine or Vermont? Nyc has afforded much already for the garden state.

mikeweiss 2y ago

This. I'm glad the current implementation has been cancelled solely because New Jersey, the neighboring state that will see a massive impact on their transit and infrastructure due to this wasn't going to see a single cent.