5 ms·

Why infamous? Btw Chinese company Corebai cloned FX2 and sells it as CBM9002A at ~$2.5 while Cypress is $4-16 https://hackaday.com/2024/04/15/logic-analyzers-d

by rasz 2y ago

Why infamous? Btw Chinese company Corebai cloned FX2 and sells it as CBM9002A at ~$2.5 while Cypress is $4-16 https://hackaday.com/2024/04/15/logic-analyzers-decoding-and-monitoring/ https://hackaday.com/2024/04/15/logic-analyzers-decoding-and...

userbinator 2y ago
Infamous because USBee was the first to sell overpriced logic analysers based on the FX2 reference devboard, then Saleae did the same (a little less overpriced) but they both complained about all the clones, and tried to "FTDI them" which also caught their own original devices: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/warning-about-usbee/ https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/warning-about-usbee/ That Corebai clone is interesting. They apparently also have a CBM9001A which is a clone of the Cypress SL811HS (the datasheet is a search-and-replace, they even forgot to do that to the PDF properties), and almost all their other products are marketed as "Replace" for ICs from big brands like Maxim and Analog Devices. I wonder if these are layout-RE'd clones or reimplementations --- I suspect the latter.
- Rinzler89 2y ago
  You keep calling all those original devices overpriced, but what exactly makes them overpriced in your option? To me it's wild how (not singling you out specifically) well paid people have no issue paying on a daily basis 8$ for a shitty cup of Starbucks or 18$ for a mediocre sandwich in London or California, stuff that you then piss and poop away, but asking them to pay 10$-60$ one time for a widget like an Original Arduino or a Salee, developed by skilled people that lasts you for life, that's suddenly overpriced. It's as if people expect electronic devices to only cost the sum of their wholesale parts, preferably at the manufacturing costs in a country with no workers rights and no IP rights, and ignoring the skilled labor that goes into the IP of the originals.
  - tecleandor 2y ago
    It'd be nice if it were 20-60$, but weren't USBee AX Pro more like $500 when they released them?
    - Rinzler89 2y ago
      Maybe they were I don' remember exactly, but you also have to put the price in the context of that era, when oscilloscopes were only available form the established manufacturers costing thousands of $, and before the era of community FOSS HW designs enabling devs to pool their knowledge for free. So even 500$ for a high quality hobbyist USB scope with good SW was considered affordable and definitely not overpriced. 500$ price was actually very disruptive to the established scope industry. And developing those 500 scopes and SW at western wages, doesn't come cheap, and since the SW was free, the only way to recoup the R&D and turn a profit was through the margins on HW sales
      - NikkiA 2y ago
        The era of $500 scopes arrived before USB, initially with the $700 or so Tek TDS210, the price rapidly falling from there as everyone clamoured for the garage engineer market.
    - fragmede 2y ago
      Sure but they cost a lot to develop and they need to recoup their costs. That doesn't mean they're overpriced. it means they're expensive, but they have to sell them at that price because they know it's only a matter of time before knockoffs come out and they have to lower prices, so they need to charge that much in order to not go out of business. It's a niche product to a small audience. The word overpriced is reserved for luxury items like designer anything, sunglasses, handbags, jeans, etc. they're able to be priced that way because of the brand, with no relation to how much it cost to make. (note: the price of an item and the cost or takes to make an item are decoupled. took a lot of years of business to learn that one)
      - ashirviskas 2y ago
        I don't see a difference there. If someone sells something without doing much innovation for over 10 years (doesn't matter if it is electronics or clothing), for much more than it costs to make, why is one overpriced and the other one is not?
  - daghamm 2y ago
    Oh come on. All these devices are based on the Cypress reference design. USBee was sold for 1600, the software was crap. Saleae was sold for a couple of hundreds. The software was nice but unstable and limited. The "clones" that also use the reference design cost 10-20 and use the open source sigrok/pulseview software. Should also add that I don't live in CA, and don't drink coffee :)
    - Rinzler89 2y ago
      >Oh come on. All these devices are based on the Cypress reference design. And MacOS is based on the original BSD and Android is based on Linux. Doesn't mean you can't take something already existing then improve and polish it till you can monetize it. People are willing to pay for increased UX and polish. >Should also add that I don't live in CA, and don't drink coffee :) You weren't the point of this, but people who scoff at a few bucks for hardware when they spend a lot more than that on daily frivolities. You know there's plenty of them out there, even here.
      - daghamm 2y ago
        When I wrote "based", I meant it was pretty much a 1-1 copy of a design by Cypress (although they have all evolved since than). I dont like the idea that one particular company should sell this for a shedload and anyone buying a cheaper device from elsewhere is doing something wrong. Saleae claimed that people buying "clones" use their desktop software without paying, which is a reasonable complaint. But with Sigrok around nobody is doing that anymore.
  - dajtxx 2y ago
    I often ask myself this. I think of how much I (used) to pay for coffee & lunch each week, but balk at buying a game or tool. It took years to convince myself to buy a coffee machine but I'm pretty sure it will pay for itself in less than a year. And I has no computers in it, so it is relatively simple to service and has less to go wrong with it so I'm hoping it lasts more than the usual 2 or 3 years. And I take sandwiches for lunch.
    - brokenmachine 2y ago
      I've thought about buying a coffee machine, but it seems like it might end up being a lot of dicking around with grinding beans, cleaning and maintenance. I don't need another thing to clean and maintain. Also the machines aren't cheap, maybe the cost of 200 cups of coffee. So with the cost of beans, etc, I'd probably want it to last at least 2 years just to break even taking into account the inconvenience. Just not sure I'd get the value out of it. But it would be nice to get to the point where I could be guaranteed a really good coffee just how I like it every day.
- monocasa 2y ago
  > I wonder if these are layout-RE'd clones or reimplementations I have heard on the grapevine of several cases where these Chinese clone manufacturers don't use any of the original layout, but did put their hands on the original device's test vectors to design their reimplemention.
- rasz 2y ago
  > almost all their other products are marketed as "Replace" for ICs from big brands Made in China 2025 plan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Made_in_China_2025 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Made_in_China_2025 Subsidies for manufacturing/using locally sourced domestic components. Good example is this teardown of Deye SUN-5K-SG04LP1 5kW hybrid solar inverter https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0_cTg36A2Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0_cTg36A2Q. Brochure advertises top name brands, all Chinese clones (presumably high quality) substitutes inside.

by rasz 2y ago

userbinator 2y ago

Infamous because USBee was the first to sell overpriced logic analysers based on the FX2 reference devboard, then Saleae did the same (a little less overpriced) but they both complained about all the clones, and tried to "FTDI them" which also caught their own original devices: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/warning-about-usbee/ https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/warning-about-usbee/ That Corebai clone is interesting. They apparently also have a CBM9001A which is a clone of the Cypress SL811HS (the datasheet is a search-and-replace, they even forgot to do that to the PDF properties), and almost all their other products are marketed as "Replace" for ICs from big brands like Maxim and Analog Devices. I wonder if these are layout-RE'd clones or reimplementations --- I suspect the latter.

Rinzler89 2y ago
You keep calling all those original devices overpriced, but what exactly makes them overpriced in your option? To me it's wild how (not singling you out specifically) well paid people have no issue paying on a daily basis 8$ for a shitty cup of Starbucks or 18$ for a mediocre sandwich in London or California, stuff that you then piss and poop away, but asking them to pay 10$-60$ one time for a widget like an Original Arduino or a Salee, developed by skilled people that lasts you for life, that's suddenly overpriced. It's as if people expect electronic devices to only cost the sum of their wholesale parts, preferably at the manufacturing costs in a country with no workers rights and no IP rights, and ignoring the skilled labor that goes into the IP of the originals.
- tecleandor 2y ago
  It'd be nice if it were 20-60$, but weren't USBee AX Pro more like $500 when they released them?
  - Rinzler89 2y ago
    Maybe they were I don' remember exactly, but you also have to put the price in the context of that era, when oscilloscopes were only available form the established manufacturers costing thousands of $, and before the era of community FOSS HW designs enabling devs to pool their knowledge for free. So even 500$ for a high quality hobbyist USB scope with good SW was considered affordable and definitely not overpriced. 500$ price was actually very disruptive to the established scope industry. And developing those 500 scopes and SW at western wages, doesn't come cheap, and since the SW was free, the only way to recoup the R&D and turn a profit was through the margins on HW sales
    - NikkiA 2y ago
      The era of $500 scopes arrived before USB, initially with the $700 or so Tek TDS210, the price rapidly falling from there as everyone clamoured for the garage engineer market.
  - fragmede 2y ago
    Sure but they cost a lot to develop and they need to recoup their costs. That doesn't mean they're overpriced. it means they're expensive, but they have to sell them at that price because they know it's only a matter of time before knockoffs come out and they have to lower prices, so they need to charge that much in order to not go out of business. It's a niche product to a small audience. The word overpriced is reserved for luxury items like designer anything, sunglasses, handbags, jeans, etc. they're able to be priced that way because of the brand, with no relation to how much it cost to make. (note: the price of an item and the cost or takes to make an item are decoupled. took a lot of years of business to learn that one)
    - ashirviskas 2y ago
      I don't see a difference there. If someone sells something without doing much innovation for over 10 years (doesn't matter if it is electronics or clothing), for much more than it costs to make, why is one overpriced and the other one is not?
- daghamm 2y ago
  Oh come on. All these devices are based on the Cypress reference design. USBee was sold for 1600, the software was crap. Saleae was sold for a couple of hundreds. The software was nice but unstable and limited. The "clones" that also use the reference design cost 10-20 and use the open source sigrok/pulseview software. Should also add that I don't live in CA, and don't drink coffee :)
  - Rinzler89 2y ago
    >Oh come on. All these devices are based on the Cypress reference design. And MacOS is based on the original BSD and Android is based on Linux. Doesn't mean you can't take something already existing then improve and polish it till you can monetize it. People are willing to pay for increased UX and polish. >Should also add that I don't live in CA, and don't drink coffee :) You weren't the point of this, but people who scoff at a few bucks for hardware when they spend a lot more than that on daily frivolities. You know there's plenty of them out there, even here.
    - daghamm 2y ago
      When I wrote "based", I meant it was pretty much a 1-1 copy of a design by Cypress (although they have all evolved since than). I dont like the idea that one particular company should sell this for a shedload and anyone buying a cheaper device from elsewhere is doing something wrong. Saleae claimed that people buying "clones" use their desktop software without paying, which is a reasonable complaint. But with Sigrok around nobody is doing that anymore.
- dajtxx 2y ago
  I often ask myself this. I think of how much I (used) to pay for coffee & lunch each week, but balk at buying a game or tool. It took years to convince myself to buy a coffee machine but I'm pretty sure it will pay for itself in less than a year. And I has no computers in it, so it is relatively simple to service and has less to go wrong with it so I'm hoping it lasts more than the usual 2 or 3 years. And I take sandwiches for lunch.
  - brokenmachine 2y ago
    I've thought about buying a coffee machine, but it seems like it might end up being a lot of dicking around with grinding beans, cleaning and maintenance. I don't need another thing to clean and maintain. Also the machines aren't cheap, maybe the cost of 200 cups of coffee. So with the cost of beans, etc, I'd probably want it to last at least 2 years just to break even taking into account the inconvenience. Just not sure I'd get the value out of it. But it would be nice to get to the point where I could be guaranteed a really good coffee just how I like it every day.
monocasa 2y ago
> I wonder if these are layout-RE'd clones or reimplementations I have heard on the grapevine of several cases where these Chinese clone manufacturers don't use any of the original layout, but did put their hands on the original device's test vectors to design their reimplemention.
rasz 2y ago
> almost all their other products are marketed as "Replace" for ICs from big brands Made in China 2025 plan https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Made_in_China_2025 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Made_in_China_2025 Subsidies for manufacturing/using locally sourced domestic components. Good example is this teardown of Deye SUN-5K-SG04LP1 5kW hybrid solar inverter https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0_cTg36A2Q https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0_cTg36A2Q. Brochure advertises top name brands, all Chinese clones (presumably high quality) substitutes inside.