5 ms·
Let's try to fix the world's vast number of actual, boring health problems before trying to add the equivalent of spoilers and chrome-plated hubcaps to perfectl
by akoboldfrying 2y ago
Let's try to fix the world's vast number of actual, boring health problems before trying to add the equivalent of spoilers and chrome-plated hubcaps to perfectly healthy human bodies.
- dyauspitr 2y agoYou can do both things at the same time.
- akoboldfrying 2y agoThat's true if we assume unlimited resources and equal awareness/perceived social value of the two applications. But I think the former doesn't hold, and the latter is greatly influenced by sites like HN, where I'm disappointed to consistently (if not exclusively) see breathless proposals for ways to design shinier hubcaps whenever some promising new technology appears. Yes, they can and likely will both happen to some extent, but I think they aren't independent, so I feel justified in trying to nudge the public conversation back towards the issues that I think matter more.
- evilduck 2y agoCosmetic surgery for vanity has helped improve the techniques and procedures and even the number of skilled practitioners that can then help those with disfigurements and deformities.
- JumpCrisscross 2y agoHell, cancer treatment for pets has advanced human oncology [1]. Scientific discovery is rarely zero sum. [1] https://www.upstate.edu/whatsup/2019/0220-treatment-for-canine-cancer-serves-as-model-for-humans.php https://www.upstate.edu/whatsup/2019/0220-treatment-for-cani...
- _factor 2y agoAnd cigarettes have benefited the lung cancer research centers. Just because it works doesn’t make it the best course.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago> breathless proposals for ways to design shinier hubcaps whenever some promising new technology appears I wouldn't underestimate the emotional toil of dealing with illness and death [1]. Tackling these problems head on requires (a) exposing researchers to that toil and (b) removing from the pool anyone who doesn't want to do that. Given how much of Silicon Valley culture is built on borderline-ludicrous optimism (once it's over the border it no longer qualifies as building), it makes sense that the indirect approach finds resonance here in a way the direct one does not. Where your argument finds ample purchase is in the asymmetry of idiot luxury spending in our society to basic and applied research of any kinds, wings or Wilm's tumour. [1] https://www.statnews.com/2016/09/19/mental-health-doctor-residency/ https://www.statnews.com/2016/09/19/mental-health-doctor-res...
- smegger001 2y agoIn all likelihood if we were to get to the point of it being safe and cheap enough for genetic engineering cosmetic "upgrades" then that would through economies of scale drive enough money that medical research funding would be a solved problem. Also anyone wanting the chrome pipes and spoilers package is going to want their engine tuned. Whats the point of having functional wings if you heart blows out trying to use them.
- inglor_cz 2y ago"they aren't independent" That interdependence may be beneficial, though. Experience and revenues from cosmetic treatments will help health-restoring treatments.
- jdietrich 2y agoEconomies of scale. Shiny hubcap manufacturers will very generously subsidise the R&D for other, more worthy users of a technology. They aren't competitive or independent, they're synergistic. The billions of dollars we "wasted" on making video games look more realistic gave us a revolution in high-performance computing that nobody could have created intentionally.
- refurb 2y agoEach gene therapy is a unique "medicine". There is little economy of scale, at least for the hardest part.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- ninjanomnom 2y agoThat's due to a lack of theory and useful abstractions in the tools used to modify genes. We're so early on in the development of that field that if this were computers, we'd still be assembling devices by arranging logic gates by hand. Custom cosmetic gene therapy is a great way to incentivize the better tools.
- refurb 2y agoNo, not really. Genes are far more complex than inserting a sequence into a delivery mechanism.
- _yb2s 2y agoMoreover, they are at this stage the exact same problem- requiring not competing but identical research: we need to understand generally how biology works enough to predictably engineer it.
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago> they are at this stage the exact same problem- requiring not competing but identical research I'd go one step further in arguing they're complementary. The personalities that will work on e.g. wings or longevity are not the types drawn to curing diseases, much less the boring ones. Broadening the field from solving mundane problems to solving daring ones is net positive. You gain personalities that would have otherwise stayed away. (You see something similar in space programmes.)
- abecedarius 2y agoAnd a huge part of what steered talented people into programming over biomedicine was the relative freedom. The more you can do without the drag of convincing a vast bureaucratic/political machine to let you try your idea, the more people will contribute to progress.
- refurb 2y agoActually you can't because there is a limit to resources in both time and money.
- LoganDark 2y agoI wish it were possible to achieve an entirely non-human body, but I don't think that's going to happen within any of our lifetimes.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- telesilla 2y agoMake sure to read Daniel Dennett before you change too much, you might forget who you are and become someone else entirely. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Is_It_Like_to_Be_a_Bat https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/What_Is_It_Like_to_Be_a_Bat
- LoganDark 2y agoI have Dissociative Identity Disorder, so I already become someone else all the time... In all seriousness, at times I do genuinely wish species transition were possible. Imagine gender dysphoria but for species, so species dysphoria. It may sound insane, but honestly so can the entire concept of dissociative identities. I don't know if I'd want to change my brain, but the physical properties of the body definitely. I want the body to be a fluffy quadruped... Thank you for the link though, that is very interesting. It is intuitive, but not something that normally comes to mind~
- ben_w 2y agoI remember the Therian and Were community, back in the day. Some overlap with the furry community, but not a perfect subset.
- LoganDark 2y agoYes, those are very similar. I occasionally use the term otherkin for myself, as a non-specific term for "one who identifies differently from the body", but I do tend to get along well with therians. (And queer people in general, I suppose.)
- Teever 2y agoWhat do you get from admonishing someone for saying the kinds of things that they just said?
- akoboldfrying 2y agoWhy do you consider an attempt to focus a public discussion on the most important uses of a new technology to be an admonishment?
- fragmede 2y agoit certainly reads as one, and calling them "most important" reveals your bias that those uses are more important too. Like it or not, the way society is currently arranged, making stuff for rich people is more profitable than making things for poor people, and greed can kick in, so people do things out of love of money rather than necessity. were the deck stacked more equal, maybe things would be different, but human psychology is devilishly complex.
- marvin 2y agoJust ensure that there’s good a insurance system to finance the rare health issues, and the market will take care of the hubcaps and spoilers. Solving e.g. male pattern baldness or bone loss from peridontitis means guaranteed billionaire from out-of-pocket treatments alone.
- gurumeditations 2y agoSex changes/gender transitions is an actual boring health problem. The inability to assume the correct gender for a trans person often leads to social rejection, violence, poverty, prostitution, murder, and suicide.
- Almondsetat 2y agoIf through gene editing you could also erase someone's disphoria what option would you choose?
- wouldbecouldbe 2y agoThat’s like trying to cure depression by getting rich. It hardly ever works
- Almondsetat 2y agoWhat?
- wouldbecouldbe 2y agoCutting off body parts to treat body dysphoria is something that should be done with great care and rarely leads to solving the underlying mental problems. Trans is a much discussed variant that is hard to have a normal talk about, but there are many more variants, for instance women hating their breast & wanting to remove them, I think most people here would agree that intensive psychological treatment are preferable to actually removing healthy body parts. But in the end an adult can do what they want.
- sillysaurusx 2y agoIsn’t it obviously good to get rid of someone’s problem? Otherwise it wouldn’t be a problem.
- Almondsetat 2y ago
- jmcgough 2y agoMost of those problems in the US are caused by lifestyle, and can't really be changed without behavioral modification. And a lot of our health issues are a matter of poor access to healthcare.
- landryraccoon 2y agoThis assumes that the fundamental nature of human beings can't be changed, which is the presupposition that genetic engineering denies. The entire point of genetic engineering is to try to engineer people at the cellular level. A fanciful example would be modifying human metabolism to be more similar to those of birds that consume most of their calories in the form of simple sugars. Humans can't eat a diet of 100% sugar and remain healthy, but other animals can. It may be possible to change that fact, if we know how to edit our genes.
- xedrac 2y agoAre you saying you could see sugar being somehow folded into the many different proteins that make up the vast number of tissues in our bodies. Or are you saying our tissues could be constructed out of sugar crystals instead?
- landryraccoon 2y agoProteins can be synthesized from sugar as a carbon source. We know this because there are bacteria that can survive and reproduce with no nutrients in their environment other than glucose. In fact you don’t even need sugar. Carbon dioxide and water alone are sufficient. Plants produce their entire biomass using nothing but carbon dioxide, water, sunlight and trace elements from soil. Amino acids and proteins don’t occur without life. Living creatures have the ability to synthesize all amino acids and proteins from simpler compounds.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- Almondsetat 2y agoHas there been any cases of this happening for other technologies? That's like saying "now that we invented canals let's try to fix the world's irrigation problems before making fountains and water parks"
- BurningFrog 2y agoWe're 8000 million people. We can, and always will, work on many different things at once.
- vsuperpower2020 2y agoThe amount of people who can actually work on anything meaningful in this field is double-digit at best. Sure, if you add up "many different things" you have plenty of people who can work on plumbing, programming, and gene editing. What are you going to do for geneCAD? Right, absolutely nothing. It doesn't matter how many of you there are; you could be 8000 million or 8000 trillion people and still accomplish nothing.
- gibolt 2y agoThis assumes things are static. There are millions of programmers now, but certainly weren't 100 years ago. The tools to investigate this will get cheaper and easier, driving more people into the field hoping for the next big win, a big payout, or just to make an impact. Anyone can make a small circuit design have have a fab print it for you. The same could happen here, all you need to do is provide the sequence
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- m3kw9 2y agoNa, this isn’t it, you one of them that talks let’s solve poverty before spending money on xyz