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I think that is pedantic and goes without saying. There are always unknown unknowns.

eikenberry 2y ago
Yes and no. Scientists throw out these sorts of terms and know what they mean but the general population doesn't and doesn't get the ramifications of the real meaning. Just see how many people think that when a scientist says "the universe" that they mean the entire universe and not, as scientists mean, the observable universe. For general, "pop" cosmology those have very different meanings and lead to all sorts of bad thinking.
- Swizec 2y ago
  > Just see how many people think that when a scientist says "the universe" that they mean the entire universe and not, as scientists mean, the observable universe We once pestered our physics professor to explain what’s outside the universe. He finally said that’s a dumb question, the universe is definitionally everything, if we find anything beyond the edge of the universe, we’ll just call that universe too. Always liked that framing.
- tsimionescu 2y ago
  In many contexts, "the universe" means "the whole universe [to the best of our knowledge]". For example, when scientists talk about the age of the universe or the start of the universe or the ultimate fate of the universe, they really do mean the whole universe, not just the observable universe.
  - eikenberry 2y ago
    So sometimes scientists are just talking out of their ass. They are people after all, so it should be expected sometimes.
    - tsimionescu 2y ago
      Not really, the observable universe is a specific part of the universe we know of. We also know a lot of things about the parts of the universe outside the observable universe. In time, some parts of what is today the observable universe will become unobservable (since they are receding at an accelerating speed because of dark energy). That doesn't mean they will cease to be things we talk about when we say "the universe". Now, is it possible that some day we'll see new stars or something else coming from a completely unexpected direction, and discover that the universe also contains things that did not begin at the big bang? Sure, it's always possible, and our theories will change. But it's absurd to qualify each statement based on the possibility that new knowledge will come along at some point, when the same qualification always applies.
      - eikenberry 2y ago
        Observation is a cornerstone of science and theorizing about something you cannot observe is interesting but not science. This is speculation about what might be outside the observable universe and that could lead to science disproving those particular speculations, but speculation is not science, it is philosophy.
        tsimionescu 2y ago
        Observation is not limited to direct observation. You can take what you're seeing with instruments, and extrapolate based on known laws, and you're still doing science. In fact, this is even more important to science than direct observation, which is extremely limited. By direct observation, I can't even tell if the earth was here yesterday, or at least a thousand years ago, even less so if it will still be here tomorrow. By the same token, when you look at certain characteristics of what you can observe of the universe, and you take the known laws of physics, you can find out a lot about the unobserved, and the un observable, universe.
  - DonHopkins 2y ago
    When Carl Sagan said "Ten Bill Yun Bill Yun Bill Yun Atoms", he actually meant "Ten Billion Billion Billion Atoms". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbkzNkskRTs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbkzNkskRTs He explained what came after the Big Bang, and where the term UFO came from: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIbbTHQmPkE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIbbTHQmPkE And when he said "BEEP. BEEP BEEP. BEEP BEEP BEEP. BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP." he really meant "1. 2. 3. 5." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPM5WpS65tk&t=470s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPM5WpS65tk&t=470s Which could be a sign of ET communication: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFflESQCRsI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFflESQCRsI
playingalong 2y ago
While I understand there are unknown unknowns, in science you can sometimes prove that something cannot be smaller or something cannot be bigger. Because it would simply not be possible. Not sure if that's the case for DNA. And I am not talking about unknown unknown like some living organism using some other "substance" as the generic material.

Yes and no. Scientists throw out these sorts of terms and know what they mean but the general population doesn't and doesn't get the ramifications of the real meaning. Just see how many people think that when a scientist says "the universe" that they mean the entire universe and not, as scientists mean, the observable universe. For general, "pop" cosmology those have very different meanings and lead to all sorts of bad thinking.

Swizec 2y ago
> Just see how many people think that when a scientist says "the universe" that they mean the entire universe and not, as scientists mean, the observable universe We once pestered our physics professor to explain what’s outside the universe. He finally said that’s a dumb question, the universe is definitionally everything, if we find anything beyond the edge of the universe, we’ll just call that universe too. Always liked that framing.
tsimionescu 2y ago
In many contexts, "the universe" means "the whole universe [to the best of our knowledge]". For example, when scientists talk about the age of the universe or the start of the universe or the ultimate fate of the universe, they really do mean the whole universe, not just the observable universe.
- eikenberry 2y ago
  So sometimes scientists are just talking out of their ass. They are people after all, so it should be expected sometimes.
  - tsimionescu 2y ago
    Not really, the observable universe is a specific part of the universe we know of. We also know a lot of things about the parts of the universe outside the observable universe. In time, some parts of what is today the observable universe will become unobservable (since they are receding at an accelerating speed because of dark energy). That doesn't mean they will cease to be things we talk about when we say "the universe". Now, is it possible that some day we'll see new stars or something else coming from a completely unexpected direction, and discover that the universe also contains things that did not begin at the big bang? Sure, it's always possible, and our theories will change. But it's absurd to qualify each statement based on the possibility that new knowledge will come along at some point, when the same qualification always applies.
    - eikenberry 2y ago
      Observation is a cornerstone of science and theorizing about something you cannot observe is interesting but not science. This is speculation about what might be outside the observable universe and that could lead to science disproving those particular speculations, but speculation is not science, it is philosophy.
      - tsimionescu 2y ago
        Observation is not limited to direct observation. You can take what you're seeing with instruments, and extrapolate based on known laws, and you're still doing science. In fact, this is even more important to science than direct observation, which is extremely limited. By direct observation, I can't even tell if the earth was here yesterday, or at least a thousand years ago, even less so if it will still be here tomorrow. By the same token, when you look at certain characteristics of what you can observe of the universe, and you take the known laws of physics, you can find out a lot about the unobserved, and the un observable, universe.
- DonHopkins 2y ago
  When Carl Sagan said "Ten Bill Yun Bill Yun Bill Yun Atoms", he actually meant "Ten Billion Billion Billion Atoms". https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbkzNkskRTs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbkzNkskRTs He explained what came after the Big Bang, and where the term UFO came from: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIbbTHQmPkE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iIbbTHQmPkE And when he said "BEEP. BEEP BEEP. BEEP BEEP BEEP. BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP BEEP." he really meant "1. 2. 3. 5." https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPM5WpS65tk&t=470s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPM5WpS65tk&t=470s Which could be a sign of ET communication: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFflESQCRsI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TFflESQCRsI

playingalong 2y ago

While I understand there are unknown unknowns, in science you can sometimes prove that something cannot be smaller or something cannot be bigger. Because it would simply not be possible. Not sure if that's the case for DNA. And I am not talking about unknown unknown like some living organism using some other "substance" as the generic material.