5 ms·

This is a good case study and how different the US versus European climate for scenarios like this is

by redwood 2y ago

solardev 2y ago
How does Europe handle it?
- swiftcoder 2y ago
  Probation periods at the start of employment, mostly. And once the probation period is over, you need to provide robust cause to fire someone.
- monotux 2y ago
  You can fire people in Europe too. In a lot of cases you have a six month trial period in which the employer or the employee can cancel the employment without any notice period. After six months there is a notice period from both parts, typically one to three months.
  - JTyQZSnP3cQGa8B 2y ago
    Most companies in France have a trial period of 3 or 4 months which can be doubled to "make sure that everything is right." Which means that companies have to 6 or 8 months to fire new guys. I guess it’s the same amount of time in other countries.
- ties_ 2y ago
  It is expensive --- but here (the Netherlands) you can still fire or demote someone after the initial trial period. Instant dismissal without cause (for non-discriminatory reasons) is possible in the trial period, with trial period being time-limited (1 month for 12 month contract, 2-3 for permanent). The going rate for firing without cause is about 1/3rd of a month of salary per year of employment for an employee under 55 (?) on a permanent contract. On a yearly contract this is difficult - I would recommend hiring on permanent contracts because they are even seen as a positive. Demoting will mean that you overpay someone, but will at least clarify the new hierarchy to the team.
- oaiey 2y ago
  In many places, there is a trial period of 3 months and then usually you do a one year contract. So you have at least two decision points. Second thing is: most of our countries have a more direct conversation style.
- mardifoufs 2y ago
  Contract work is a lot more common in Europe for a reason
  - solardev 2y ago
    I don't think I ever realized that's why there are so many discussions of "employment contracts" here on HN (which has a heavy European population, from what I can see). In my entire adult working life in the US, I've never once had an employment contract (and still have never seen one or heard of anyone else with one, either).
    - mardifoufs 2y ago
      Yeah,contract work in north america is more reserved for very specific situations (for example, you need expertise in some very niche system) and even then that's pretty rare outside of consultants. In Europe it's everywhere. When I was in France it was quite jarring and imo, it seems like it would be more stressful than at will employment as it's basically a yearly stress (as opposed to stress only when the economy is bad for example). But I think some European countries have some protections for contractors too, I just don't know if those apply to when your contract just doesn't get renewed.
    - btasker 2y ago
      Having an employment contract is more common over here, but that's not the same as what we'd call being a contractor. As a full-time employee of the company you're working for (i.e. not simply contracted in), you still have an employment contract (it's a right/required) which'll lay out the employment expectations (salary, hours per week, whether you can be required to work additional hours etc). We do also have contractors - i.e. those who work for an external company who are brought in for a specific project (or to provide easy-to-get-rid-of headcount). In my experience, working as a contractor isn't all that much more common than in the US. But people having some form of contract is, because basically all employees have one.
      - mardifoufs 2y ago
galangalalgol 2y ago
Can you explain?

This is a good case study and how different the US versus European climate for scenarios like this is

solardev 2y ago

How does Europe handle it?

swiftcoder 2y ago
Probation periods at the start of employment, mostly. And once the probation period is over, you need to provide robust cause to fire someone.
monotux 2y ago
You can fire people in Europe too. In a lot of cases you have a six month trial period in which the employer or the employee can cancel the employment without any notice period. After six months there is a notice period from both parts, typically one to three months.
- JTyQZSnP3cQGa8B 2y ago
  Most companies in France have a trial period of 3 or 4 months which can be doubled to "make sure that everything is right." Which means that companies have to 6 or 8 months to fire new guys. I guess it’s the same amount of time in other countries.
ties_ 2y ago
It is expensive --- but here (the Netherlands) you can still fire or demote someone after the initial trial period. Instant dismissal without cause (for non-discriminatory reasons) is possible in the trial period, with trial period being time-limited (1 month for 12 month contract, 2-3 for permanent). The going rate for firing without cause is about 1/3rd of a month of salary per year of employment for an employee under 55 (?) on a permanent contract. On a yearly contract this is difficult - I would recommend hiring on permanent contracts because they are even seen as a positive. Demoting will mean that you overpay someone, but will at least clarify the new hierarchy to the team.
oaiey 2y ago
In many places, there is a trial period of 3 months and then usually you do a one year contract. So you have at least two decision points. Second thing is: most of our countries have a more direct conversation style.
mardifoufs 2y ago
Contract work is a lot more common in Europe for a reason
- solardev 2y ago
  I don't think I ever realized that's why there are so many discussions of "employment contracts" here on HN (which has a heavy European population, from what I can see). In my entire adult working life in the US, I've never once had an employment contract (and still have never seen one or heard of anyone else with one, either).
  - mardifoufs 2y ago
    Yeah,contract work in north america is more reserved for very specific situations (for example, you need expertise in some very niche system) and even then that's pretty rare outside of consultants. In Europe it's everywhere. When I was in France it was quite jarring and imo, it seems like it would be more stressful than at will employment as it's basically a yearly stress (as opposed to stress only when the economy is bad for example). But I think some European countries have some protections for contractors too, I just don't know if those apply to when your contract just doesn't get renewed.
  - btasker 2y ago
    Having an employment contract is more common over here, but that's not the same as what we'd call being a contractor. As a full-time employee of the company you're working for (i.e. not simply contracted in), you still have an employment contract (it's a right/required) which'll lay out the employment expectations (salary, hours per week, whether you can be required to work additional hours etc). We do also have contractors - i.e. those who work for an external company who are brought in for a specific project (or to provide easy-to-get-rid-of headcount). In my experience, working as a contractor isn't all that much more common than in the US. But people having some form of contract is, because basically all employees have one.
    - mardifoufs 2y ago

galangalalgol 2y ago

Can you explain?