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Get that interview process fixed ASAP and let this lemon go. Don’t be surprised if there is pushback from non-technicals if this hire checked a bunch of boxes

Get that interview process fixed ASAP and let this lemon go. Don’t be surprised if there is pushback from non-technicals if this hire checked a bunch of boxes for other departments. A good strategy would be to have them be a lead on a minor project that requires technical chops and communication. Ensure there is a daily standup and grind them on details and timelines. Get them some juniors as direct reports to expose their lack of knowledge, then have meetings with these junior devs about project performance. The stress alone will probably make them quit. Document as much as you can in emails and messaging systems.

ssijak 2y ago
That is just evil to both that person and your team. Just let the person go if they do not satisfy what they were selling them self as. Dont play evil and stupid games.
- teitoklien 2y ago
  US is an exception in terms of at-will employment. In most other countries you cannot fire people just for reasons like this. In other countries people have to resort to backhanded ways like the parent comment mentioned if you want to get someone off the payroll.
  - ta1243 2y ago
    You can in the probationary period. If after several months you decide you no longer want them that's different, but if you hire someone, they're no good, you can fire them pretty easily, assuming you've specified the probationary period in the contract.
  - jenscow 2y ago
    That's "constructive dismissal", which is not allowed. Firing for "performance" is ok in the first year or two (country specific)
    - teitoklien 2y ago
      > "constructive dismissal", which is not allowed. I agree, but a lot of things that are not allowed but happen frequently. Doesnt matter what the law says is illegal, unless its enforced. Im not saying its a good thing to resort to such toxic measures. Parent comment said it is evil and should not be done, I just mentioned the reality that in most countries its one of the classical tried and tested method to bypass employment safety laws that almost rarely gets backlash. I myself dislike such toxic behaviour, but just stating the reality of what happens.
  - _puk 2y ago
    And those countries generally have laws against constructive dismissal (which is what a lot of these "persecute then until they quit" recommendations amount to)
neilv 2y ago
> A good strategy would be to have them be a lead on a minor project that requires technical chops and communication. Ensure there is a daily standup and grind them on details and timelines. Get them some juniors as direct reports to expose their lack of knowledge, then have meetings with these junior devs about project performance. > The stress alone will probably make them quit. Document as much as you can in emails and messaging systems. My god, no. Unless you want to set a precedent for super-toxic, manipulative workplace environment. (You don't get to pick&choose when evil happens: "I learned it from watching you".) As well as expose the company to potentially an 8-figure harassment suit.
nkmnz 2y ago
This proto-sociopathic behavior is the direct result of European employment law. It's disgusting.
- oaiey 2y ago
  It is not. You would fire the person in the trial period or after a year. What is expensive in most European jurisdiction to fire a permanent contract after the initial trial period/first year contract without wrongdoing. But that is typically after a year or more. The reason here is that they are trying to be a employer which focus on personell development. Which is contradictive to capitalism and obviously they have not figured out yet, how to deal with situations like this.
  - JTyQZSnP3cQGa8B 2y ago
    Entrapment is sociopathic.
  - teitoklien 2y ago
    > which is contradictive to capitalism Capitalism doesnt have any 1 original author like Karl Marx, not everything can be made to fit in “capitalism” and villified. The latest devices you’re writing code and comments on here with are devices powered by latest silicon fabrication tech made by teams of engineers on whose careers, companies greatly invested long term to get to this. There are tons of capitalistic employers there who invest in their employees careers retain them and take their help to grow the company, even give them esops and stock options. High skilled labour isnt a cogwheel readily available on the market churning out of colleges, they are trained, retained and further developed throughout their careers to bring value to business and build new products. Capitalism isnt this great evil thing that wants to suck you dry and destroy you. It has perfectly healthy versions that give people a chance at Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.
- btasker 2y ago
  No, it's the result of that poster's mindset - there's absolutely no need to do any of that. In fact, that type of behavior is against the law in a lot of countries and will leave the employer likely liable. If someone's under-performing whilst in their probation period getting rid of them is incredibly easy. Outside of the probation period there's a bit more of a process, but it's still not particularly hard - all you actually need to be doing is documenting.
quantgenius 2y ago
> A good strategy would be to have them be a lead on a minor project that > requires technical chops and communication. Ensure there is a daily standup > and grind them on details and timelines. Get them some juniors as direct > reports to expose their lack of knowledge, then have meetings with these > junior devs about project performance. Do not do this. You do not need a “strategy”. Just do it! Rip off the band-aid. Either tell them the truth or give no reason even if asked. Reverse the mistake asap and get moving on your company’s mission. You don’t need one second more of this. Nor does anyone else at your organization. Do it today! Do it dispassionately. Do it as nicely as possible. You are going to feel bad because you are a good empathetic human. Some people will have a reaction. Some people will “have a reaction” to try to get more out of you. You are not responsible for either. You are responsible only for your own actions. Figure out what you should give them to be fair and add a little extra so you are sure it isn’t unfair. Plan what you will say and do in advance and have someone you trust with you in the meeting. Stick to your plan. Even the best hiring processes succeed only 50% of the time (though this goes beyond just a bad hire). Firing, and firing quickly is just as important as hiring well. Also remember that if an applicant tailors to a hiring process to this extent, that’s not just a failure of the process. It’s dishonesty. Even if the applicant were competent, you absolutely don’t want to entertain someone dishonest in your company.

ssijak 2y ago

That is just evil to both that person and your team. Just let the person go if they do not satisfy what they were selling them self as. Dont play evil and stupid games.

teitoklien 2y ago
US is an exception in terms of at-will employment. In most other countries you cannot fire people just for reasons like this. In other countries people have to resort to backhanded ways like the parent comment mentioned if you want to get someone off the payroll.
- ta1243 2y ago
  You can in the probationary period. If after several months you decide you no longer want them that's different, but if you hire someone, they're no good, you can fire them pretty easily, assuming you've specified the probationary period in the contract.
- jenscow 2y ago
  That's "constructive dismissal", which is not allowed. Firing for "performance" is ok in the first year or two (country specific)
  - teitoklien 2y ago
    > "constructive dismissal", which is not allowed. I agree, but a lot of things that are not allowed but happen frequently. Doesnt matter what the law says is illegal, unless its enforced. Im not saying its a good thing to resort to such toxic measures. Parent comment said it is evil and should not be done, I just mentioned the reality that in most countries its one of the classical tried and tested method to bypass employment safety laws that almost rarely gets backlash. I myself dislike such toxic behaviour, but just stating the reality of what happens.
- _puk 2y ago
  And those countries generally have laws against constructive dismissal (which is what a lot of these "persecute then until they quit" recommendations amount to)

neilv 2y ago

> A good strategy would be to have them be a lead on a minor project that requires technical chops and communication. Ensure there is a daily standup and grind them on details and timelines. Get them some juniors as direct reports to expose their lack of knowledge, then have meetings with these junior devs about project performance. > The stress alone will probably make them quit. Document as much as you can in emails and messaging systems. My god, no. Unless you want to set a precedent for super-toxic, manipulative workplace environment. (You don't get to pick&choose when evil happens: "I learned it from watching you".) As well as expose the company to potentially an 8-figure harassment suit.

nkmnz 2y ago

This proto-sociopathic behavior is the direct result of European employment law. It's disgusting.

oaiey 2y ago
It is not. You would fire the person in the trial period or after a year. What is expensive in most European jurisdiction to fire a permanent contract after the initial trial period/first year contract without wrongdoing. But that is typically after a year or more. The reason here is that they are trying to be a employer which focus on personell development. Which is contradictive to capitalism and obviously they have not figured out yet, how to deal with situations like this.
- JTyQZSnP3cQGa8B 2y ago
  Entrapment is sociopathic.
- teitoklien 2y ago
  > which is contradictive to capitalism Capitalism doesnt have any 1 original author like Karl Marx, not everything can be made to fit in “capitalism” and villified. The latest devices you’re writing code and comments on here with are devices powered by latest silicon fabrication tech made by teams of engineers on whose careers, companies greatly invested long term to get to this. There are tons of capitalistic employers there who invest in their employees careers retain them and take their help to grow the company, even give them esops and stock options. High skilled labour isnt a cogwheel readily available on the market churning out of colleges, they are trained, retained and further developed throughout their careers to bring value to business and build new products. Capitalism isnt this great evil thing that wants to suck you dry and destroy you. It has perfectly healthy versions that give people a chance at Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.
btasker 2y ago
No, it's the result of that poster's mindset - there's absolutely no need to do any of that. In fact, that type of behavior is against the law in a lot of countries and will leave the employer likely liable. If someone's under-performing whilst in their probation period getting rid of them is incredibly easy. Outside of the probation period there's a bit more of a process, but it's still not particularly hard - all you actually need to be doing is documenting.

quantgenius 2y ago

> A good strategy would be to have them be a lead on a minor project that > requires technical chops and communication. Ensure there is a daily standup > and grind them on details and timelines. Get them some juniors as direct > reports to expose their lack of knowledge, then have meetings with these > junior devs about project performance. Do not do this. You do not need a “strategy”. Just do it! Rip off the band-aid. Either tell them the truth or give no reason even if asked. Reverse the mistake asap and get moving on your company’s mission. You don’t need one second more of this. Nor does anyone else at your organization. Do it today! Do it dispassionately. Do it as nicely as possible. You are going to feel bad because you are a good empathetic human. Some people will have a reaction. Some people will “have a reaction” to try to get more out of you. You are not responsible for either. You are responsible only for your own actions. Figure out what you should give them to be fair and add a little extra so you are sure it isn’t unfair. Plan what you will say and do in advance and have someone you trust with you in the meeting. Stick to your plan. Even the best hiring processes succeed only 50% of the time (though this goes beyond just a bad hire). Firing, and firing quickly is just as important as hiring well. Also remember that if an applicant tailors to a hiring process to this extent, that’s not just a failure of the process. It’s dishonesty. Even if the applicant were competent, you absolutely don’t want to entertain someone dishonest in your company.