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I don't see any dishonesty here. Boeing has designed a system that sets up pilots for failure. It's Boeing's fault, not the pilots', that the auto-throttle dise

I don't see any dishonesty here. Boeing has designed a system that sets up pilots for failure. It's Boeing's fault, not the pilots', that the auto-throttle disengages for no reason and that they then have to manually set the correct thrust during an already high workload situation. It's absurd and unacceptable. This is the kind of unsafe work culture that I thought we were done with in aviation.

Dalewyn 2y ago
Blaming Boeing and only Boeing is intellectual dishonesty, blaming the pilots for failing to fly their plane is also necessary. Remember, TOGA and autothrottle are not necessary for safe flight. It is also explicitly a pilot's job to manage the engines among many other things. It's why there are two pilots in the cockpit, one is in control of the aircraft while the other is keeping tabs on secondary and tertiary needs like radios and cross checking instruments with the pilot in control. If the aircraft isn't accelerating properly, it is the pilots' job to respond including rejecting the takeoff before it's too late. Takeoff is by far the most stressful part of a flight for the engines, if the pilots are not keeping close tabs on the engines during takeoff then they are fundamentally unfit to fly. Blaming Boeing and only Boeing is dishonest and doesn't address the problem, but it does pay the medias' bills by stoking the furor of readers such as yourself.
- TheOtherHobbes 2y ago
  TOGA and A/T are not necessary, but if they're supplied they should work reliably. If they don't, and pilots have to cover for their failures manually, that's one more avoidable point of failure. Adding one more avoidable point of failure is NOT acceptable.
  - Dalewyn 2y ago
    That this has to be an either-or crusade against Boeing instead of blaming all the relevant parties speaks volumes about how much fucking damage "journalism" like this does. Once again: Both Boeing and the pilots along with whoever else is involved in this are all to blame equally. If you're going to let pilots who don't properly check their engine gauges off the hook because you are far more interested in crapping on Boeing specifically, planes are eventually going to come down regardless of Boeing.
- conartist6 2y ago
  Just because a system isn't necessary for safe flight doesn't meant that a) it can't kill you or b) you shouldn't use it. If you think that blaming the people will solve the problem, then I'm excited to be the one to introduce you to one of the most important and underserved fields of engineering: human factors, the study of which is a major reason we have safe aviation.
  - zaphar 2y ago
    Human factors is an important field of study, yes. But just because we know humans make mistakes doesn't mean we can't hold them accountable for those mistakes when they happen. Our tendency to focus on one thing to the exclusion of the other things is bad for getting a full understanding of what is going on. Two things are true in this incident: 1. Boeing has a known unfixed software bug in their planes that puts pilots in a bad position. It has multiple known failures that look the same and created a learned response that was incorrect. This is bad and Boeing should answer for it. 2. The pilots are ultimately responsible for making sure they are hitting the correct speed for take off and should be aborting if they are having difficulty making that speed. They failed to do so in this case. This is bad and they should have to answer for it. Both of these are true and neither one excuses the other.

Dalewyn 2y ago

Blaming Boeing and only Boeing is intellectual dishonesty, blaming the pilots for failing to fly their plane is also necessary. Remember, TOGA and autothrottle are not necessary for safe flight. It is also explicitly a pilot's job to manage the engines among many other things. It's why there are two pilots in the cockpit, one is in control of the aircraft while the other is keeping tabs on secondary and tertiary needs like radios and cross checking instruments with the pilot in control. If the aircraft isn't accelerating properly, it is the pilots' job to respond including rejecting the takeoff before it's too late. Takeoff is by far the most stressful part of a flight for the engines, if the pilots are not keeping close tabs on the engines during takeoff then they are fundamentally unfit to fly. Blaming Boeing and only Boeing is dishonest and doesn't address the problem, but it does pay the medias' bills by stoking the furor of readers such as yourself.

TheOtherHobbes 2y ago
TOGA and A/T are not necessary, but if they're supplied they should work reliably. If they don't, and pilots have to cover for their failures manually, that's one more avoidable point of failure. Adding one more avoidable point of failure is NOT acceptable.
- Dalewyn 2y ago
  That this has to be an either-or crusade against Boeing instead of blaming all the relevant parties speaks volumes about how much fucking damage "journalism" like this does. Once again: Both Boeing and the pilots along with whoever else is involved in this are all to blame equally. If you're going to let pilots who don't properly check their engine gauges off the hook because you are far more interested in crapping on Boeing specifically, planes are eventually going to come down regardless of Boeing.
conartist6 2y ago
Just because a system isn't necessary for safe flight doesn't meant that a) it can't kill you or b) you shouldn't use it. If you think that blaming the people will solve the problem, then I'm excited to be the one to introduce you to one of the most important and underserved fields of engineering: human factors, the study of which is a major reason we have safe aviation.
- zaphar 2y ago
  Human factors is an important field of study, yes. But just because we know humans make mistakes doesn't mean we can't hold them accountable for those mistakes when they happen. Our tendency to focus on one thing to the exclusion of the other things is bad for getting a full understanding of what is going on. Two things are true in this incident: 1. Boeing has a known unfixed software bug in their planes that puts pilots in a bad position. It has multiple known failures that look the same and created a learned response that was incorrect. This is bad and Boeing should answer for it. 2. The pilots are ultimately responsible for making sure they are hitting the correct speed for take off and should be aborting if they are having difficulty making that speed. They failed to do so in this case. This is bad and they should have to answer for it. Both of these are true and neither one excuses the other.