8 ms·

Ukraine is about as black and white as it gets.

by multjoy 2y ago

yobert 2y ago
Amen. I used to be a pacifist before the Ukraine war. Now I feel like a completely different person.
- rightbyte 2y ago
  Really? My journey was the opposite. That war in combo with another war made me realize the indignation is more or less manufactured and that the elite rather have my face blown into pieces than not lose their face in a figurative way. It is like watching a self-playing piano pitting me against another self-playing piano and I am supposed to cheer the whole parade.
- pstuart 2y ago
  Right there with you. Making it even more surreal to be "pro-war" is that the party of the previous president was rabidly anti-Russia until he came into office and did a 180.
- keybored 2y ago
  That you changed your principles based on a war started by the sworn enemy of the West on the contrary speaks to being the same person all along.
lukan 2y ago
[flagged]
- racional 2y ago
  Bandera Ooh, scary. Here's the deal, though -- the guy is glorified by some people in Ukraine, but not in any official capacity at the national level. When an attempt was made to grant him official "Hero" status at the national level, it was rejected. The monument in particular is a local endeavor. Doesn't make Putin's war anymore justified Right, but the idea here seems to be to throw cold water on idea that Ukraine is unambiguously the victim of aggression here, or to at least sow some general confusion around it. It's all very straightforward as to why Putin invaded -- and (despite what he says) none of the Nazi stuff had anything to do with it. It's just noise that he puts out there to push people's buttons; to sow doubts about Ukraine's legitimacy as independent state or its right to defend itself; and internally, to get people to sign up for his lemming march.
  - lukan 2y ago
    "Right, but the idea here seems to be to throw cold water on idea that Ukraine is unambiguously the victim of aggression here" Yes, that is Putins plan. That doesn't mean there isn't any truth in its propaganda. The point we are discussing is, if the war Ukraine vs Russia is "as black and white as it gets". To which I disagree, you can find quite some black elements in Ukraine, too. Not at all on the same level and I support weapon delivery etc. But I do not support closing my eyes to only see everything in simple shapes and colors.
    - baybal2 2y ago
      [dead]
    - macintux 2y ago
      Russia is raping and slaughtering its way through a country that did not invade it, was not threatening its neighbors, whose primary crime was being too friendly with the West. Why does it matter whether all Ukrainian citizens are angels or devils?
      - lukan 2y ago
        "Why does it matter whether all Ukrainian citizens are angels or devils?" Because people who are devils and who are officially allowed to have weapons and use them sometimes has bad side effects.
- afavour 2y ago
  How are you defining “officially glorified”?
  - lukan 2y ago
    Like I said, the official former embassador of Ukraine in germany is a big fan of him. (and there was a scandal about some of his statements, so he was pulled back, but rewarded). A ambassador is not a private person, but pretty official. And no, I did not say all of Ukraine glorifies him.
    - afavour 2y ago
      > A ambassador is not a private person, but pretty official. “The opinion that the Ambassador of Ukraine to Germany Andrii Melnyk expressed in an interview with a German journalist is of his own and does not reflect the position of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Ukraine.” https://mfa.gov.ua/en/news/komentar-rechnika-mzs-ukrayini-olega-nikolenka-shchodo-ukrayinsko-polskih-vidnosin https://mfa.gov.ua/en/news/komentar-rechnika-mzs-ukrayini-ol... Come on, this is silly. A private opinion was publicly disowned by the government. Of all the things to use as a “well, actually”, this is really scraping the bottom of the barrel. To say he was “officially glorified” is absolutely false.
- armada651 2y ago
  > Also the russian language get supressed and in general russians are seen as enemies. Not just russian soldiers, but people with a russian cultural background. Nationalism in all its glory. That's not anywhere near as bad as the U.S. during WWII when Japanese Americans were sent to actual internment camps.
  - lukan 2y ago
    Sure. Or german jews fleeing from Hitler also being put in such camps. Or the use of weapons of mass distruction. WW2 was not a clean war by our standards.
- _DeadFred_ 2y ago
  Funny every Ukrainian I know can speak russian, but not all of them can speak ukrainian. A large portion went to university at least in part in Russia. A large portion are intermarried with Russians or have intermarried Russian/Ukrainian parents. Prior to the war Ukrainians' views on russians seemed way more friendly than the 'mainstream' american's views on mexicans.
  - rufus_foreman 2y ago
    >> Prior to the war Ukrainians' views on russians seemed way more friendly than the 'mainstream' american's views on mexicans. The 2019 "On Protecting the functioning of the Ukrainian language as the State language" law forbid the publishing of print media in Russian unless the same publication was available in Ukrainian, it forbid requiring Russian language ability for any job, it forbid Russian instruction in schools after elementary school, and it limited the amount of Russian content allowed in broadcasting. That does not seem to me to be more friendly than the way Mexicans are treated in the US. It seems like a law that was designed to cause conflict. If Canada passed a law that treated French speakers like that, I would expect violence and I would assume that the legislators who passed the law were trying to provoke violence.
    - ahartmetz 2y ago
      Uhm well, 2019 was after 2014. After 2014, Ukraine having some "issues" with Russia was pretty well justified.
      - lukan 2y ago
        Issues with Putin and his green men, yes. But why with the russian culture? And I never claimed it qualifies as cultural genocide (like Putin does), but some Ukrainians want that. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/interactive/2023/ukraine-russian-influence-destruction/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/interactive/2023/ukrain...
    - _DeadFred_ 2y ago
      The post I was responding to: "and in general russians are seen as enemies. Not just russian soldiers, but people with a russian cultural background. Nationalism in all its glory." is complete BS. My reference regarding attitudes towards Mexicans was a response to that comment, not to the law you just mentioned. But what a weird argument you make. Canada has numerous laws like these in order to protect French speakers. How much 'expected violence' by Anglo Canadians has that resulted in? Again, in my experience, every Ukrainian I have met can speak some russian. A good portion can not speak ukrainian. The President of Ukraine's native language is Russian and was a well known Russian language entertainer who stared in 'Servant of the People' a Ukrainian TV show where he spoke Russian. Strange for a country that's being labeled so historically and systemically anti-Russia. Edit: See also Zelensky performing on Russian state TV New Years special https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTmhTxzAH70 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTmhTxzAH70
- dralley 2y ago
  "Also the russian language get supressed" 99% of Ukrainians can speak Russian. This is like saying that the English language is suppressed in Ireland because there are certain efforts around trying to prop up the native language after centuries of attempted extermination by the local colonial power. "general russians are seen as enemies. Not just russian soldiers, but people with a russian cultural background. Nationalism in all its glory." Russians are seen as enemies because all evidence suggests that they largely support, or at best do very little to oppose, the Russian state which invaded them, butcher and torture their countrymen.
  - lukan 2y ago
    "This is like saying that the English language is suppressed in Ireland because there are certain efforts around trying to prop up the native language after centuries of attempted extermination by the local colonial power" I think it is a bit more then that: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_policy_in_Ukraine https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_policy_in_Ukraine
dang 2y ago
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40613127 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40613127.
keybored 2y ago
The Iraq War was black and white. The Vietnam War was black and white. Lots of things are black and white.

Ukraine is about as black and white as it gets.

yobert 2y ago

Amen. I used to be a pacifist before the Ukraine war. Now I feel like a completely different person.

rightbyte 2y ago
Really? My journey was the opposite. That war in combo with another war made me realize the indignation is more or less manufactured and that the elite rather have my face blown into pieces than not lose their face in a figurative way. It is like watching a self-playing piano pitting me against another self-playing piano and I am supposed to cheer the whole parade.
pstuart 2y ago
Right there with you. Making it even more surreal to be "pro-war" is that the party of the previous president was rabidly anti-Russia until he came into office and did a 180.
keybored 2y ago
That you changed your principles based on a war started by the sworn enemy of the West on the contrary speaks to being the same person all along.

lukan 2y ago

[flagged]

racional 2y ago
Bandera Ooh, scary. Here's the deal, though -- the guy is glorified by some people in Ukraine, but not in any official capacity at the national level. When an attempt was made to grant him official "Hero" status at the national level, it was rejected. The monument in particular is a local endeavor. Doesn't make Putin's war anymore justified Right, but the idea here seems to be to throw cold water on idea that Ukraine is unambiguously the victim of aggression here, or to at least sow some general confusion around it. It's all very straightforward as to why Putin invaded -- and (despite what he says) none of the Nazi stuff had anything to do with it. It's just noise that he puts out there to push people's buttons; to sow doubts about Ukraine's legitimacy as independent state or its right to defend itself; and internally, to get people to sign up for his lemming march.
- lukan 2y ago
  "Right, but the idea here seems to be to throw cold water on idea that Ukraine is unambiguously the victim of aggression here" Yes, that is Putins plan. That doesn't mean there isn't any truth in its propaganda. The point we are discussing is, if the war Ukraine vs Russia is "as black and white as it gets". To which I disagree, you can find quite some black elements in Ukraine, too. Not at all on the same level and I support weapon delivery etc. But I do not support closing my eyes to only see everything in simple shapes and colors.
  - baybal2 2y ago
    [dead]
  - macintux 2y ago
    Russia is raping and slaughtering its way through a country that did not invade it, was not threatening its neighbors, whose primary crime was being too friendly with the West. Why does it matter whether all Ukrainian citizens are angels or devils?
    - lukan 2y ago
      "Why does it matter whether all Ukrainian citizens are angels or devils?" Because people who are devils and who are officially allowed to have weapons and use them sometimes has bad side effects.
afavour 2y ago
How are you defining “officially glorified”?
- lukan 2y ago
  Like I said, the official former embassador of Ukraine in germany is a big fan of him. (and there was a scandal about some of his statements, so he was pulled back, but rewarded). A ambassador is not a private person, but pretty official. And no, I did not say all of Ukraine glorifies him.
  - afavour 2y ago
    > A ambassador is not a private person, but pretty official. “The opinion that the Ambassador of Ukraine to Germany Andrii Melnyk expressed in an interview with a German journalist is of his own and does not reflect the position of the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of Ukraine.” https://mfa.gov.ua/en/news/komentar-rechnika-mzs-ukrayini-olega-nikolenka-shchodo-ukrayinsko-polskih-vidnosin https://mfa.gov.ua/en/news/komentar-rechnika-mzs-ukrayini-ol... Come on, this is silly. A private opinion was publicly disowned by the government. Of all the things to use as a “well, actually”, this is really scraping the bottom of the barrel. To say he was “officially glorified” is absolutely false.
armada651 2y ago
> Also the russian language get supressed and in general russians are seen as enemies. Not just russian soldiers, but people with a russian cultural background. Nationalism in all its glory. That's not anywhere near as bad as the U.S. during WWII when Japanese Americans were sent to actual internment camps.
- lukan 2y ago
  Sure. Or german jews fleeing from Hitler also being put in such camps. Or the use of weapons of mass distruction. WW2 was not a clean war by our standards.
_DeadFred_ 2y ago
Funny every Ukrainian I know can speak russian, but not all of them can speak ukrainian. A large portion went to university at least in part in Russia. A large portion are intermarried with Russians or have intermarried Russian/Ukrainian parents. Prior to the war Ukrainians' views on russians seemed way more friendly than the 'mainstream' american's views on mexicans.
- rufus_foreman 2y ago
  >> Prior to the war Ukrainians' views on russians seemed way more friendly than the 'mainstream' american's views on mexicans. The 2019 "On Protecting the functioning of the Ukrainian language as the State language" law forbid the publishing of print media in Russian unless the same publication was available in Ukrainian, it forbid requiring Russian language ability for any job, it forbid Russian instruction in schools after elementary school, and it limited the amount of Russian content allowed in broadcasting. That does not seem to me to be more friendly than the way Mexicans are treated in the US. It seems like a law that was designed to cause conflict. If Canada passed a law that treated French speakers like that, I would expect violence and I would assume that the legislators who passed the law were trying to provoke violence.
  - ahartmetz 2y ago
    Uhm well, 2019 was after 2014. After 2014, Ukraine having some "issues" with Russia was pretty well justified.
    - lukan 2y ago
      Issues with Putin and his green men, yes. But why with the russian culture? And I never claimed it qualifies as cultural genocide (like Putin does), but some Ukrainians want that. https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/interactive/2023/ukraine-russian-influence-destruction/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/interactive/2023/ukrain...
  - _DeadFred_ 2y ago
    The post I was responding to: "and in general russians are seen as enemies. Not just russian soldiers, but people with a russian cultural background. Nationalism in all its glory." is complete BS. My reference regarding attitudes towards Mexicans was a response to that comment, not to the law you just mentioned. But what a weird argument you make. Canada has numerous laws like these in order to protect French speakers. How much 'expected violence' by Anglo Canadians has that resulted in? Again, in my experience, every Ukrainian I have met can speak some russian. A good portion can not speak ukrainian. The President of Ukraine's native language is Russian and was a well known Russian language entertainer who stared in 'Servant of the People' a Ukrainian TV show where he spoke Russian. Strange for a country that's being labeled so historically and systemically anti-Russia. Edit: See also Zelensky performing on Russian state TV New Years special https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTmhTxzAH70 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cTmhTxzAH70
dralley 2y ago
"Also the russian language get supressed" 99% of Ukrainians can speak Russian. This is like saying that the English language is suppressed in Ireland because there are certain efforts around trying to prop up the native language after centuries of attempted extermination by the local colonial power. "general russians are seen as enemies. Not just russian soldiers, but people with a russian cultural background. Nationalism in all its glory." Russians are seen as enemies because all evidence suggests that they largely support, or at best do very little to oppose, the Russian state which invaded them, butcher and torture their countrymen.
- lukan 2y ago
  "This is like saying that the English language is suppressed in Ireland because there are certain efforts around trying to prop up the native language after centuries of attempted extermination by the local colonial power" I think it is a bit more then that: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_policy_in_Ukraine https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Language_policy_in_Ukraine

dang 2y ago

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40613127 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40613127.

keybored 2y ago

The Iraq War was black and white. The Vietnam War was black and white. Lots of things are black and white.