4 ms·

Of course they don't deserve credit for every invention after them. I think the basic premise is that if you are going to say that only men's contributions to c

by lomegor 14y ago

Of course they don't deserve credit for every invention after them. I think the basic premise is that if you are going to say that only men's contributions to computers and the Internet are important, you are probably wrong as many women have advanced the field. If we are talking about a particular invention we can talk about specific inventors. But the Internet is not one but many technologies put together invented and developed by different people, which include men and women (maybe not specifically Lovelace). Apart from that, saying that women did not contribute enough to the Internet, is like saying black people did not contribute enough to the invention of cars; it's mostly true, but it could be argued that that's because they were an oppressed group.

cantastoria 14y ago
If we are talking about a particular invention we can talk about specific inventors. But we are talking about a particular invention and it's invention has been well documented (see "Where Wizards Stay Up Late" among I'm sure many others). If there's some alternative history here please point me to it... part from that, saying that women did not contribute enough to the Internet, is like saying black people did not contribute enough to the invention of cars; it's mostly true, but it could be argued that that's because they were an oppressed group. So woman *could" have contributed more to the Internet had they not been oppressed? That's a counterfactual argument one and two it doesn't change the fact that women didn't partake.
- lomegor 14y ago
  I haven't read that book, so I cannot talk about it specifically. But I'm sure that if you try to create an exhaustive list of people involved in creating the Internet, you would wind up with an enormous list, if you are even able to complete it. Either way, I think the problem is that we have differing views on what a particular invention is. First of all I think it's hard to define the Internet: is it just the networking? Do you count the application layer? The problem is not that women did not contribute to the Internet, the problem is saying that this means that women cannot make productive contributions to technology or the Internet or computers in general.
  - cantastoria 14y ago
    But I'm sure that if you try to create an exhaustive list of people involved in creating the Internet, you would wind up with an enormous list, if you are even able to complete it. What makes you so sure? First of all I think it's hard to define the Internet: is it just the networking? Do you count the application layer? From Wikipedia: The Internet is a global system of interconnected computer networks that use the standard Internet protocol suite (often called TCP/IP, although not all applications use TCP) to serve billions of users worldwide. It is a network of networks that consists of millions of private, public, academic, business, and government networks, of local to global scope, that are linked by a broad array of electronic, wireless and optical networking technologies. But even if you wanted to include the "application layer". Who are the women that contributed to developing it? The problem is not that women did not contribute to the Internet, the problem is saying that this means that women cannot make productive contributions to technology or the Internet or computers in general. No it doesn't. It means that women did not contribute to the invention of the Internet. Anything else you read into that is purely your imagination.
    - lomegor 14y ago
      > But even if you wanted to include the "application layer". Who are the women that contributed to developing it? That's not my point in that part. I was questioning the invention of the Internet as an easy to identify fact, while trying to explain that what we understand from the Internet is much much more than TCP/IP, for example HTTP, SSL, SMTP, IMAP, and many many more. And that's not even counting all the programming languages like HTML, CSS or even JavaScript. On the other end, you have all the different routing algorithms and all the hardware created to support the Internet. Where does it start being the Internet and where does it stop? That's why the list would never stop and/or be enormous. > No it doesn't. It means that women did not contribute to the invention of the Internet. Anything else you read into that is purely your imagination. I think that's clear because otherwise you wouldn't say it. It's like saying that the car's invention was a white people thing. Just look at the first paragraph: "Without men, we would never know what our friends were doing five minutes ago." We wouldn't have it if we didn't have women and if we didn't have humans and if we didn't have children. That sentence is true, but it does not do any good or adds any information more than implying than men were the only capable of creating the Internet. But that's part of the interpreting part of the article. Of course we can differ. I think, in this case, either way could be a possibility, but from the tone of the article I believe that it is implied that women could not have created the Internet.
coridactyl 14y ago
> Apart from that, saying that women did not contribute enough to the Internet, is like saying black people did not contribute enough to the invention of cars; it's mostly true, but it could be argued that that's because they were an oppressed group. That is indeed an interesting juxtaposition, and I'd particularly note the use of the word "enough." That would suggest that in discussions on the history of technology, it is implied that there is some arbitrary threshold at which mentions of the contributions of a minority group (not necessarily an identity minority; i.e. in a women-dominated field you'd say the minority is the men, etc.) will be disqualified. For instance, it is indeed "mostly true" that black people did not make many contributions to the automotive industry or its technological development. Richard Spikes' contribution of turn signals (http://www.snopes.com/business/origins/blackinv.asp http://www.snopes.com/business/origins/blackinv.asp) is perhaps notable or even significant, but not necessarily critical, so this could serve as an example of that statement. Does that mean that the hypothetical phrase "White men invented the modern automobile" in a hypothetical article about a black man being ostracized from the auto industry in 2012 is racist? Or is it merely an acknowledgment of the fact that white men get the credit because they structured the industry to give it to them, by excluding everyone else? Or is it both?
- lomegor 14y ago
  No, it's not racist. When you use it to say that black people don't know anything about cars or that they can't influence the future of that, then yes, it is.
- cantastoria 14y ago
  That would suggest that in discussions on the history of technology, it is implied that there is some arbitrary threshold... But there's nothing arbitrary here, we know who invented the Internet. None of them where women. The argument that women could have contributed but didn't "because they were an oppressed group" is just an absurd couterfactual. Who knows what would have happened? You can say anything you want... Richard Spikes' contribution of turn signals... Richard Spikes invented the turn signal. Full stop. Saying he contributed to the invention of the automobile is as absurd as saying that Edison or Tesla contributed to the invention of the turn signal. No one would say that because the turn signal stands on it's own. Using your line of reasoning, Richard Spikes invented the turn signal with contributions from who knows how many women and other minorities. Or is it merely an acknowledgment of the fact that white men get the credit because they structured the industry to give it to them, by excluding everyone else? That doesn't mean women should get a historical "participation trophy" just for being somewhere and doing something in computing while the actual inventors where developing the Internet. It's insulting to them and women (and Al Gore...).

by lomegor 14y ago

cantastoria 14y ago

If we are talking about a particular invention we can talk about specific inventors. But we are talking about a particular invention and it's invention has been well documented (see "Where Wizards Stay Up Late" among I'm sure many others). If there's some alternative history here please point me to it... part from that, saying that women did not contribute enough to the Internet, is like saying black people did not contribute enough to the invention of cars; it's mostly true, but it could be argued that that's because they were an oppressed group. So woman *could" have contributed more to the Internet had they not been oppressed? That's a counterfactual argument one and two it doesn't change the fact that women didn't partake.

lomegor 14y ago
I haven't read that book, so I cannot talk about it specifically. But I'm sure that if you try to create an exhaustive list of people involved in creating the Internet, you would wind up with an enormous list, if you are even able to complete it. Either way, I think the problem is that we have differing views on what a particular invention is. First of all I think it's hard to define the Internet: is it just the networking? Do you count the application layer? The problem is not that women did not contribute to the Internet, the problem is saying that this means that women cannot make productive contributions to technology or the Internet or computers in general.
- cantastoria 14y ago
  But I'm sure that if you try to create an exhaustive list of people involved in creating the Internet, you would wind up with an enormous list, if you are even able to complete it. What makes you so sure? First of all I think it's hard to define the Internet: is it just the networking? Do you count the application layer? From Wikipedia: The Internet is a global system of interconnected computer networks that use the standard Internet protocol suite (often called TCP/IP, although not all applications use TCP) to serve billions of users worldwide. It is a network of networks that consists of millions of private, public, academic, business, and government networks, of local to global scope, that are linked by a broad array of electronic, wireless and optical networking technologies. But even if you wanted to include the "application layer". Who are the women that contributed to developing it? The problem is not that women did not contribute to the Internet, the problem is saying that this means that women cannot make productive contributions to technology or the Internet or computers in general. No it doesn't. It means that women did not contribute to the invention of the Internet. Anything else you read into that is purely your imagination.
  - lomegor 14y ago
    > But even if you wanted to include the "application layer". Who are the women that contributed to developing it? That's not my point in that part. I was questioning the invention of the Internet as an easy to identify fact, while trying to explain that what we understand from the Internet is much much more than TCP/IP, for example HTTP, SSL, SMTP, IMAP, and many many more. And that's not even counting all the programming languages like HTML, CSS or even JavaScript. On the other end, you have all the different routing algorithms and all the hardware created to support the Internet. Where does it start being the Internet and where does it stop? That's why the list would never stop and/or be enormous. > No it doesn't. It means that women did not contribute to the invention of the Internet. Anything else you read into that is purely your imagination. I think that's clear because otherwise you wouldn't say it. It's like saying that the car's invention was a white people thing. Just look at the first paragraph: "Without men, we would never know what our friends were doing five minutes ago." We wouldn't have it if we didn't have women and if we didn't have humans and if we didn't have children. That sentence is true, but it does not do any good or adds any information more than implying than men were the only capable of creating the Internet. But that's part of the interpreting part of the article. Of course we can differ. I think, in this case, either way could be a possibility, but from the tone of the article I believe that it is implied that women could not have created the Internet.

coridactyl 14y ago

> Apart from that, saying that women did not contribute enough to the Internet, is like saying black people did not contribute enough to the invention of cars; it's mostly true, but it could be argued that that's because they were an oppressed group. That is indeed an interesting juxtaposition, and I'd particularly note the use of the word "enough." That would suggest that in discussions on the history of technology, it is implied that there is some arbitrary threshold at which mentions of the contributions of a minority group (not necessarily an identity minority; i.e. in a women-dominated field you'd say the minority is the men, etc.) will be disqualified. For instance, it is indeed "mostly true" that black people did not make many contributions to the automotive industry or its technological development. Richard Spikes' contribution of turn signals (http://www.snopes.com/business/origins/blackinv.asp http://www.snopes.com/business/origins/blackinv.asp) is perhaps notable or even significant, but not necessarily critical, so this could serve as an example of that statement. Does that mean that the hypothetical phrase "White men invented the modern automobile" in a hypothetical article about a black man being ostracized from the auto industry in 2012 is racist? Or is it merely an acknowledgment of the fact that white men get the credit because they structured the industry to give it to them, by excluding everyone else? Or is it both?

lomegor 14y ago
No, it's not racist. When you use it to say that black people don't know anything about cars or that they can't influence the future of that, then yes, it is.
cantastoria 14y ago
That would suggest that in discussions on the history of technology, it is implied that there is some arbitrary threshold... But there's nothing arbitrary here, we know who invented the Internet. None of them where women. The argument that women could have contributed but didn't "because they were an oppressed group" is just an absurd couterfactual. Who knows what would have happened? You can say anything you want... Richard Spikes' contribution of turn signals... Richard Spikes invented the turn signal. Full stop. Saying he contributed to the invention of the automobile is as absurd as saying that Edison or Tesla contributed to the invention of the turn signal. No one would say that because the turn signal stands on it's own. Using your line of reasoning, Richard Spikes invented the turn signal with contributions from who knows how many women and other minorities. Or is it merely an acknowledgment of the fact that white men get the credit because they structured the industry to give it to them, by excluding everyone else? That doesn't mean women should get a historical "participation trophy" just for being somewhere and doing something in computing while the actual inventors where developing the Internet. It's insulting to them and women (and Al Gore...).