3 ms·

So, your plan is to get rid of both artificial fertilizers (use methane for Haber-Bosch), and natural fertilizers (livestock manure)?

phreeza 2y ago
The methane feedstocks for Haber-Bosch probably don't come from cow stomach though, right?
- NoMoreNicksLeft 2y ago
  Presumably they'd come fracking shale. But if you want to hook up a few million hoses to cowbutts, I'm not stopping you.
yareal 2y ago
It's expensive but we could absolutely produce green methane with renewable energy. And there are natural fertilizer paths that aren't cattle. You've constructed a strawman.
- NoMoreNicksLeft 2y ago
  > It's expensive but we could absolutely produce green methane with renewable energy. You don't even understand. The methane's mostly for the hydrogen, used to make ammonia or some other nitrogen compound. There are other ways of making this, Birkeland Eyde, for instance, but there like one third as efficient, at best. This means people starve. You might make the case that we could efficiently use livestock manure as a substitute (it's the green solution), but not if you're going to turn this into Planet Vegan. Given the necessity of animal manure, it's difficult to think that "get rid of all the livestock" stems from anything other than bizarre vegan tendencies. If you absolutely have to get rid of the livestock, so be it, but then you really do need the fossil fuels. Pick, it's one or the other as far as I can tell. > And there are natural fertilizer paths that aren't cattle. Nope. You've got livestock (hogs, poultry, etc), or you've got fossil-fuel-based Haber-Bosch. I'm not even really aware of any science fiction concepts "other paths".
  - aziaziazi 2y ago
    100y ago the farter in my area where riding horse trucks to the city with vegetable to sell and came back with human and horses excrements.
  - philipkglass 2y ago
    Nope. You've got livestock (hogs, poultry, etc), or you've got fossil-fuel-based Haber-Bosch. I'm not even really aware of any science fiction concepts "other paths". The Haber-Bosch process needs hydrogen, as you said in your first paragraph. Hydrogen can be made directly from water by electrolysis with renewable or nuclear electricity. This was already done on an industrial scale in the 20th century, with hydroelectric power used to produce hydrogen for ammonia: "1921–2021: A Century of Renewable Ammonia Synthesis" https://www.mdpi.com/2673-4079/3/2/11 https://www.mdpi.com/2673-4079/3/2/11 That's how to use the Haber-Bosch process without fossil fuels or livestock.
    - NoMoreNicksLeft 2y ago
      > The Haber-Bosch process needs hydrogen, as you said in your first paragraph. Hydrogen can be made directly from water by electrolysis Nice. You've just made one of the most energy-intensive necessary industrial processes even more energy intensive. Even while you're doing your best to demolish whatever baseload power we might still have. > This was already done on an industrial scale in the 20th century, with hydroelectric power used to produce hydrogen for ammonia: Got any spare hydroelectric? Any more rivers you want to dam up? Maybe you can decommission a few more nuke plants and replace them with brown coal.
  - hamilyon2 2y ago
    Nitrogen fixing bacteria and biofertiliser certainly exist https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7464700/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7464700/
  - yareal 2y ago
    Green ammonia is already being commercially deployed by folks like Talus. Yes, we'd have to invest hard in renewables and nuclear, but it's absolutely achievable. Ammonia production is whole integer percent of global energy use, that's not an impossible number to supply with hydrogen. Additionally, pulse crop rotation is increasingly being used to provide some free nitrogen to the soil. Bioreactors with Azotobacter vinelandii are showing promise in providing nitrogen fixing in a reactor. And like, industrial composting produces fertilizers with plenty of nitrogen. Soybeans, in particular, need no nitrogen inputs and produce plenty of both useful food and nitrogen containing plant matter. Our wastewater also contains tons of nitrogen, both from biosolids and from agricultural runoff. These are difficult to get at safely, admittedly, but not impossible. If you pause to think about it, all that manure needs to come from feedstock plus other inputs (water, etc). If you diverted that same feedstock into producing fertilizer (in the case of soybeans) or not producing at all (in the case of dent corn) you'd have plenty of material and a reduced demand. Manure doesn't just magically come from no inputs.
remarkEon 2y ago
His plan is to kill the human race. The rest is just window dressing.
- NoMoreNicksLeft 2y ago
  It seems like that to me too. I keep hoping that it's just some cognition defect, that they're trying to be reasonable, that there's this one little piece of logic they stumble over... but the more I listen to them, the more convinced I become that they really do just want all of us to be extinct.
  - remarkEon 2y ago
    Yeah the environmental movement from the 70s has evolved into something like a death cult in its modern equivalent. Technology can no longer save us, but is in and of itself the problem along with industrialized civilization. Doubly ironic given how that movement killed nuclear power, and if we had actually built as many reactors as Nixon wanted we would've actually accomplished some of these now-arguably unachievable goals on climate metrics. I'm being a little glib in that comment, but the sentiment is I think true and I wish they'd be honest about it. If they stated plainly that "we think in order to achieve what we believe are the required reductions in xyz, we have to decrease the human population by X% so less is consumed" I would actually respect them more. Instead the de-growth mentality is rhetorized up to look nice, but again it's just window dressing.

phreeza 2y ago

The methane feedstocks for Haber-Bosch probably don't come from cow stomach though, right?

NoMoreNicksLeft 2y ago
Presumably they'd come fracking shale. But if you want to hook up a few million hoses to cowbutts, I'm not stopping you.

yareal 2y ago

It's expensive but we could absolutely produce green methane with renewable energy. And there are natural fertilizer paths that aren't cattle. You've constructed a strawman.

NoMoreNicksLeft 2y ago
> It's expensive but we could absolutely produce green methane with renewable energy. You don't even understand. The methane's mostly for the hydrogen, used to make ammonia or some other nitrogen compound. There are other ways of making this, Birkeland Eyde, for instance, but there like one third as efficient, at best. This means people starve. You might make the case that we could efficiently use livestock manure as a substitute (it's the green solution), but not if you're going to turn this into Planet Vegan. Given the necessity of animal manure, it's difficult to think that "get rid of all the livestock" stems from anything other than bizarre vegan tendencies. If you absolutely have to get rid of the livestock, so be it, but then you really do need the fossil fuels. Pick, it's one or the other as far as I can tell. > And there are natural fertilizer paths that aren't cattle. Nope. You've got livestock (hogs, poultry, etc), or you've got fossil-fuel-based Haber-Bosch. I'm not even really aware of any science fiction concepts "other paths".
- aziaziazi 2y ago
  100y ago the farter in my area where riding horse trucks to the city with vegetable to sell and came back with human and horses excrements.
- philipkglass 2y ago
  Nope. You've got livestock (hogs, poultry, etc), or you've got fossil-fuel-based Haber-Bosch. I'm not even really aware of any science fiction concepts "other paths". The Haber-Bosch process needs hydrogen, as you said in your first paragraph. Hydrogen can be made directly from water by electrolysis with renewable or nuclear electricity. This was already done on an industrial scale in the 20th century, with hydroelectric power used to produce hydrogen for ammonia: "1921–2021: A Century of Renewable Ammonia Synthesis" https://www.mdpi.com/2673-4079/3/2/11 https://www.mdpi.com/2673-4079/3/2/11 That's how to use the Haber-Bosch process without fossil fuels or livestock.
  - NoMoreNicksLeft 2y ago
    > The Haber-Bosch process needs hydrogen, as you said in your first paragraph. Hydrogen can be made directly from water by electrolysis Nice. You've just made one of the most energy-intensive necessary industrial processes even more energy intensive. Even while you're doing your best to demolish whatever baseload power we might still have. > This was already done on an industrial scale in the 20th century, with hydroelectric power used to produce hydrogen for ammonia: Got any spare hydroelectric? Any more rivers you want to dam up? Maybe you can decommission a few more nuke plants and replace them with brown coal.
- hamilyon2 2y ago
  Nitrogen fixing bacteria and biofertiliser certainly exist https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7464700/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7464700/
- yareal 2y ago
  Green ammonia is already being commercially deployed by folks like Talus. Yes, we'd have to invest hard in renewables and nuclear, but it's absolutely achievable. Ammonia production is whole integer percent of global energy use, that's not an impossible number to supply with hydrogen. Additionally, pulse crop rotation is increasingly being used to provide some free nitrogen to the soil. Bioreactors with Azotobacter vinelandii are showing promise in providing nitrogen fixing in a reactor. And like, industrial composting produces fertilizers with plenty of nitrogen. Soybeans, in particular, need no nitrogen inputs and produce plenty of both useful food and nitrogen containing plant matter. Our wastewater also contains tons of nitrogen, both from biosolids and from agricultural runoff. These are difficult to get at safely, admittedly, but not impossible. If you pause to think about it, all that manure needs to come from feedstock plus other inputs (water, etc). If you diverted that same feedstock into producing fertilizer (in the case of soybeans) or not producing at all (in the case of dent corn) you'd have plenty of material and a reduced demand. Manure doesn't just magically come from no inputs.

remarkEon 2y ago

His plan is to kill the human race. The rest is just window dressing.

NoMoreNicksLeft 2y ago
It seems like that to me too. I keep hoping that it's just some cognition defect, that they're trying to be reasonable, that there's this one little piece of logic they stumble over... but the more I listen to them, the more convinced I become that they really do just want all of us to be extinct.
- remarkEon 2y ago
  Yeah the environmental movement from the 70s has evolved into something like a death cult in its modern equivalent. Technology can no longer save us, but is in and of itself the problem along with industrialized civilization. Doubly ironic given how that movement killed nuclear power, and if we had actually built as many reactors as Nixon wanted we would've actually accomplished some of these now-arguably unachievable goals on climate metrics. I'm being a little glib in that comment, but the sentiment is I think true and I wish they'd be honest about it. If they stated plainly that "we think in order to achieve what we believe are the required reductions in xyz, we have to decrease the human population by X% so less is consumed" I would actually respect them more. Instead the de-growth mentality is rhetorized up to look nice, but again it's just window dressing.