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The Twitch DJ Program
- peauc 2y agoThat's pretty cool. I'm looking forward to seeing how it pans out with records companies though..
- saaaaaam 2y agoThis is a licence that has been negotiated with record companies and music publishers. So they are on board.
- matclayton 2y agoHave you got a reference for how they are tackling publishing rights? I've been looking for it and only found references to labels so far.
- jasrys 2y agoThey haven't licensed publishing (at least not yet). Source: am publisher
- saaaaaam 2y agoThey have, via the NMPA deal in 2021. (See my comment a couple above)
- jasrys 2y agoYou can read more about what that deal covered — and didn’t cover — here on NMPA’s site: https://www.nmpa.org/twitch-makes-deal-with-nmpa-but-streamers-still-cant-play-licensed-music/ https://www.nmpa.org/twitch-makes-deal-with-nmpa-but-streame...
- saaaaaam 2y agoTwitch is already licensed for publishing after it did a deal with the NMPA back in 2021 https://www.nmpa.org/nmpa-and-twitch-announce-agreement/ https://www.nmpa.org/nmpa-and-twitch-announce-agreement/ That’s primarily via the PROs - ASCAP, BMI, SESAC. E.g. ASCAP says “Fortunately, most popular live-streaming platforms, such as YouTube, Facebook, Instagram Live, Soundcloud and Twitch are licensed by ASCAP” See third accordion here: https://www.ascap.com/help/ascap-licensing https://www.ascap.com/help/ascap-licensing I’m assuming because DJ performances via twitch are considered non-interactive streaming they - like Pandora’s free tier - don’t need a mechanical licence, at least in the US. How that then translates to other territories though I’m not entirely sure. In Europe I’m pretty sure they’d need to have a mechanical licence in place whether or not they are interactive.
- prox 2y agoMy only concern is that actually the big guys get the big cut, and the DJ and the original artists (that are not wildly popular) the shortest end of the stick.
- gareth_untether 2y agoWondering if this means regular streams can use music. There’s a lot of artists and game devs that would benefit from background music.
- soneil 2y agoThe second-last paragraph seems to cover this. In short, no - but it seems reasonable to believe this could be a solid stepping-stone on the path from here to there.
- wavemode 2y agoMany, many streamers have been getting away with streaming copyrighted music for a while now, by simply not recording VODs (or, recording them in such a way that the music is excluded). My understanding is that this practice is still technically illegal (since live-broadcasting music without recording it is still something you need copyright permission for), but significantly more difficult for record companies to crack down on.
- riskable 2y agoIf you just want background music that won't set off any DMCA alarms use one of the generative AI music tools. Even the examples and 10-second tests are probably good enough (just loop them), LOL By law they can't be copyrighted since they were generated by AI.
- mandibeet 2y agoI think it only connected with DJ Category
- Faskil 2y agoWhat a joke. > DJs opted into the program will not be able to save VODs, Clips, or Highlights to Twitch. > Our program does not allow you to stream pre-release tracks Those two conditions alone show you how much they have no clue what a DJ does and this new "program" is just a way for the majors to be even more greedy.
- BlobberSnobber 2y agoYeah, I wonder what this even does besides taking a bigger cut from the DJs streaming revenue. I also love how the problem they say they want to solve has the most meaningless description ever and is not actionable at all.
- lysp 2y agoThe other thing is DJs already have to pay their local record industry organisation licences to be able to perform music publicly. This seems like double-dipping.
- diggan 2y agoAFAIK (at least here in Spain), it's the venue that is responsible for paying this license fee, not the DJ themselves. Unless you organize your own events/play at your own venue, obviously. Probably works differently everywhere though...
- GuB-42 2y agoSame thing in France (SACEM). The venue pays the fees, and it is dependent on the scale of the event, the entrance fees, etc... The DJ doesn't have to pay anything, he just plays the music the venue has paid for the right to play. And it is essentially the same thing with Twitch here, as Twitch pays the necessary fees that allow the DJ to perform on their platform. It may be different in some other countries indeed. I think in Germany, home of the infamous GEMA, DJs have to pay a fee in certain conditions, in addition to what the venue pays.
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- matclayton 2y agoCo-founder of Mixcloud here. We've been doing live streaming and licensed for years at this point (https://www.mixcloud.com/pro/live https://www.mixcloud.com/pro/live) Surprised it took twitch so long to make these deals happen, but it shows how complex these deals are to navigate, and congrats on them for doing so! Interested to see how this pans out and glad to see others in the field figuring out the licensing and not just ignoring it.
- DevX101 2y agoTwitch has lot more content creators who aren’t streaming music so getting a deal done immediately wasn’t their #1 priority.
- matclayton 2y ago100% its way less than 1% of their streams, the CEO said as much recently. However that doesn't mean that the music labels are ok with copyright infringement being on the platform. I guess this is the real question, they clearly had to do a deal or shut it DJ's on the service. They chose to do the deals, so will they now lean into it as its an active area for investment, or was it a necessity to avoid a lawsuit etc. Time will tell, and its great to see them addressing this problem and the playing field being levelled for everyone else we was already paying for rights.
- 1zael 2y agoI'm curious if Twitch explored a partnership with you all at Mixcloud, given you had the deals and infra all built out. In hindsight that would've been a much more efficient process For Twitch, but as a former employee I also understand Twitch is averse to integrations with third-party companies that create dependencies on their ability to control their own destiny.
- matclayton 2y agoWe've talked to twitch on and off over the years, but nothing specific to this. Music licensing data pipelines are a massively complex topic and very hard to get right. Its one of those areas you can only appreciate having done it. It looks trivial from the outside, my guess is they will be starting that work now, and in about 6-12 months time the complex reality of it will start to set in. Ironically the hardest part isn't even figuring out the track, its figuring out which major label owns the rights for it, in the territory it was streamed, on the day it was streamed. This is even more complex on the publishing side, where you can have multiple writers.
- diggan 2y ago> The Twitch DJ program lets you stream DJ sets using the vast majority of popular music. Sounds great that seemingly it coves a lot of the mainstream music, but what's the procedure if I happen to stream something that isn't a part of that? And how can I check what songs from my library are cleared to play/stream without having to actually play them and "find out" after the fact? The pages about this program seem to miss something vital practical information. > If you stream pre-release tracks, your channel may be subject to enforcement and penalties including termination of your stream and suspension of your channel. What a shame... Half the fun is finding absolutely new tracks and playing those. But I guess overall this program is a step in the right direction.
- dijksterhuis 2y ago> A searchable catalog constantly updated with new releases means you’ll have a full view of the millions of tracks that are covered to stream as a part of this offering TL;DR build sets out of the “twitch licensed works” catalog > I don’t play major pop records or much major label music. Does this program apply to me? > We're always looking to grow the Twitch DJ catalog. If you're interested in chatting with us about this, please reach out to dj-catalog-requests@justin.tv. TL;DR Email them about the tracks you want added (and pray, probably). https://www.twitch.tv/dj-program/info https://www.twitch.tv/dj-program/info
- diggan 2y agoThanks, missed that about the searchable catalog. Here's to hoping there will be some Rekordbox integration in the future so one doesn't have to manually search through 100s of tracks and instead can just get a checkbox in the UI. > TL;DR Email them about the tracks you want added (and pray, probably). I think that part is about labels/rights holders wanting to add tracks to the catalog from their side, not for DJs to request tracks to be added. But maybe I read that wrong, worth a try at least. Thanks :)
- dijksterhuis 2y agoYeah I read it as being on the creators side of things (because that’s what the whole page is for). But you could be right. Worth tying anyway like you say.
- 1zael 2y agoFormer Twitch employee here. The labels will take a pretty high cut of revenue - I've heard something in the range of 30-50% - leaving the DJ with 25% (on the high end) after splitting it 50/50 with Twitch. Deduct tax and payment processing fees, this effectively would leave the DJ with ~20% of their current earnings. So the DJ would get 99 cents out of a $4.99 (US) sub. Additionally, Twitch isn't providing any features to help DJ creators make up for this loss in earnings, so this is effectively just a way for Twitch to avoid DMCA lawsuits while making it easier for DJs to stream. Twitch is softening the earnings (and PR) blow by absorbing the costs for one year, after which DJ creators are going to be in for a rude awakening.
- 63 2y agofwiw the price of tier 1 twitch subs will go up to $5.99 in July according to a recent email sent to all subscribers, so I suppose the figure goes up to $1.18 or something
- prox 2y agoAs someone who gift subs, this is bad news for my gifting budget which will stay the same. I also do not see any benefits for the streamer with this price raise.
- input_sh 2y ago> I also do not see any benefits for the streamer with this price raise. I see this as a huge, industry-changing event. Right now, there's no big DJs streaming on Twitch. There's also no big streamers that became big because they're DJing. DJs on Twitch do exist, but we're talking dozens to hundreds of listeners, a small but very consistent community. I can only name one DJ that can consistently reach a couple of thousand, but she's more of a variety streamer, not exclusively a DJ. The really big story here is that DJing stops being this legal gray area on a major platform. If record label owners woke up one day with the intention to remove every DJ set from YouTube, or SoundCloud, or Twitch, there's nothing anyone could do about it. Up until this point, Mixcloud was the only platform available where a random nobody can perform or publish a DJ set without having to worry about it being taken down. The problem with Mixcloud is that most listeners don't want a separate app just for DJ sets, they'd rather listen to them on an app they already use, like Soundcloud or YouTube. So naturally, DJs navigate towards constantly living in this shady gray area, accepting the risk that the community they've gathered could simply vanish one day, despite there existing a 100% legal method that every DJ is aware of. Now, there's a mainstream platform that has, for the lack of a better word, "regulated" this whole thing. If Twitch does the bare minimum to promote this (as in sign a couple of relatively mainstream DJs to attract a new crowd), I can absolutely see this being very beneficial for the random "nobodies" already DJing on Twitch in front of dozens to hundreds of people.
- sneak 2y ago> DJs often leverage pre-recorded music from other artists as a critical part of their creative expression It’s crazy to me that the misconception that DJs are playing original music is still around. Even DJs who also produce music play 90%+ records from other people.
- djyaz1200 2y agoFormer pro DJ here. This is a big step in the right direction, but twitch probably won't be the beneficiary. Music is sold and consumed in single-song increments, and that's silly. That's what the industry wants, not all consumers. It's like if you could only eat one kind of food ingredient at a time. There are absolutely amazing artists taking these ingredients and, like a chef, chopping and mixing them together in wildly creative ways. However, accessing this entertainment is very challenging because there is no legitimate online business model for it. This leaves DJ's with a big incentive to only perform their best material live where they can monetize it. Once there is an online business model where they can get paid decently for this material, music consumption will change dramatically in this catagory. Imagine being able to tune into or stream different Vegas club mixes for your party at home, or at a bar, or at the gym? Imagine a netflix of all the best DJ sets of all time? Twitch is doing some of the "icebreaking" here, but music streaming is a huge business, and Spotify/apple, and all the others will follow, and there will likely be one or more services that specialize in this.
- solardev 2y agoI apologize that this is going to sound really ignorant, but how exactly is DJ mix different from something like a Spotify playlist? I use those all the time for different activities, like a playlist for working out, another one for relaxing, different ones for different board games, etc. But I've never been to a club where a DJ plays (just not really my thing, too loud and not my kind of music). What do they do? Why might someone want to stream one instead of using a playlist?
- ludwigschubert 2y agoA large part of the “value” a DJ brings is track selection; for sure. Playlists can do part of that, say to create a certain mood. But DJs get to adjust these on the fly as they observe the crowd reaction. Additionally, DJs rarely play full songs. Transitions can be drawn out over 16,32,64 bars, taking 1-2minutes. During that time DJs use tools like EQs or stem splitters to ensure the two tracks playing don’t clash. There’s lots more detail; just take my strongest recommendation to try DJing on hardware with a friend at some point; it’s a richer and more rewarding experience than the “Skrillex pressing play on his MacBook” meme suggests. Edit: there’s lots more to say about DJing of course, maybe someone else will chime in. One aspect to keep in mind is that DJing is important primarily in dance music. If you don’t go dancing at clubs you may not be aware how different dance music is to traditional music meant for listening. A lot of the focus of dance music is generating tension (“build”) and releasing it in a pleasant manner (“drop”). Doing that at a pace that works for the energy level of the crowd at that moment, without unexpected shifts in energy levels, is not trivial. It requires taste and experience, and aims to create a more cohesive and unified experience for the dancers than a playlist could. Phew! Can you tell I recently got into DJing? ;-)