4 ms·

A fair reaction. Also, Teams isn't written in 1999 JavaScript.

viraptor 2y ago
It's not far off. We got some syntax niceties and 5 slightly different and conflicting ways to concatenate .js files from different directories a.k.a packages. Apart from standardizing some things (doesn't hugely matter for electron since it's the only target) and getting async - what has really changed?
- paulddraper 2y ago
  Modules, iterators, async/await, localization, proxies, regex features, Promises, date functions, generators, classes, destructuring, WeakMap, strict mode, private members, BigInt, and a hundred other things. Check out: https://compat-table.github.io/compat-table/es5/ https://compat-table.github.io/compat-table/es5/ https://compat-table.github.io/compat-table/es6/ https://compat-table.github.io/compat-table/es6/ https://compat-table.github.io/compat-table/es2016plus/ https://compat-table.github.io/compat-table/es2016plus/ https://compat-table.github.io/compat-table/esintl/ https://compat-table.github.io/compat-table/esintl/ --- Not to mention that fact that Teams is actually written in TypeScript (tho compiled to JavaScript).
  - viraptor 2y ago
    I see really only: strict mode, weakmap, bind, typed arrays, maybe spread. (+ async mentioned earlier) The rest as far as I can see can be either written as your own function or babel-style compilation. Sure, today's code would be nicer/shorter, but... the language itself really didn't change that much, just how we use it / what we expect from it.
    - paulddraper 2y ago
      > babel-style compilation "It's not a different language, because you could have another language compile to it."
      - viraptor 2y ago
        This has been the situation for years though. Only recently did we get reasonable native support for most new standards by default. Babel compilation down to IE level was really common just few years ago. Most of the "modern JS" stuff was based on that idea. Teams was released before even the modules existed in the browsers.
  - mhio 2y ago
    Also https://node.green/ https://node.green/ which lays out features in one big list
- mhio 2y ago
  You could maybe use that argument in 2014 but writing js now is a fundamentally different experience to what it was 10 years ago, let alone 25.
pjc50 2y ago
To me, the problem isn't the language, but the use of the web layout renderer. Because it's the one everyone's familiar with, but also the most expensive computationally, and very vulnerable to having to re-layout all sorts of things.
- brazzy 2y ago
  It's also the most powerful and flexible one, increasing the chance that whatever crazy UI ideas your designers come up with can be implemented relatively easily.
lelanthran 2y ago
> Also, Teams isn't written in 1999 JavaScript. I dunno how relevant that is: 1999 JS performance is closer to 2024 JS performance than 2024 JS performance is to 1999 C++. IOW, just because 2024 JS might be faster by a factor of 2, doesn't mean it's faster at all[1] than the equivalent program written in native code. [1] Maybe it is - I haven't checked benchmarks because programming language benchmarks have almost no correlation to reality when you use the language in a program, because the program is not doing 25k calls to the same function in a while loop.
- paulddraper 2y ago
  JS aside, there's virtually a 0% chance Teams would be in C++. It'd be in a non-native language, like C#. JavaScript is faster than you think. Miles ahead of Python, Ruby, Perl, PHP. Not too different than C#/Java (especially if you consider 2x to be effectively the same) [1]. [1] https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/ https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - lelanthran 2y ago
    > It'd be in a non-native language, like C#. True; C# is the most obvious choice for Teams. > JavaScript is faster than you think. I'd be very surprised. > Miles ahead of Python, Ruby, Perl, PHP. Depends on "miles" - I think it is within the same order of magnitude as all of those. If it's far off from being in the same order of magnitude of those, I'd be very surprised. > Not too different than C#/Java I don't think so, not for idiomatic usages anyway. Java and C# are pretty damn fast! ISTR that Java/C#/Go are in a different order of magnitude from JS, Python, PHP, etc. (The link doesn't work, btw)
    - paulddraper 2y ago
      JavaScript (V8) is well over an order of magnitude faster than Python (CPython). https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/fastest/python3-node.html https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/... And Java/C# is nowhere even close to an order of magnitude faster than JS. https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/fastest/java-node.html https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/...

It's not far off. We got some syntax niceties and 5 slightly different and conflicting ways to concatenate .js files from different directories a.k.a packages. Apart from standardizing some things (doesn't hugely matter for electron since it's the only target) and getting async - what has really changed?

paulddraper 2y ago
Modules, iterators, async/await, localization, proxies, regex features, Promises, date functions, generators, classes, destructuring, WeakMap, strict mode, private members, BigInt, and a hundred other things. Check out: https://compat-table.github.io/compat-table/es5/ https://compat-table.github.io/compat-table/es5/ https://compat-table.github.io/compat-table/es6/ https://compat-table.github.io/compat-table/es6/ https://compat-table.github.io/compat-table/es2016plus/ https://compat-table.github.io/compat-table/es2016plus/ https://compat-table.github.io/compat-table/esintl/ https://compat-table.github.io/compat-table/esintl/ --- Not to mention that fact that Teams is actually written in TypeScript (tho compiled to JavaScript).
- viraptor 2y ago
  I see really only: strict mode, weakmap, bind, typed arrays, maybe spread. (+ async mentioned earlier) The rest as far as I can see can be either written as your own function or babel-style compilation. Sure, today's code would be nicer/shorter, but... the language itself really didn't change that much, just how we use it / what we expect from it.
  - paulddraper 2y ago
    > babel-style compilation "It's not a different language, because you could have another language compile to it."
    - viraptor 2y ago
      This has been the situation for years though. Only recently did we get reasonable native support for most new standards by default. Babel compilation down to IE level was really common just few years ago. Most of the "modern JS" stuff was based on that idea. Teams was released before even the modules existed in the browsers.
- mhio 2y ago
  Also https://node.green/ https://node.green/ which lays out features in one big list
mhio 2y ago
You could maybe use that argument in 2014 but writing js now is a fundamentally different experience to what it was 10 years ago, let alone 25.

pjc50 2y ago

To me, the problem isn't the language, but the use of the web layout renderer. Because it's the one everyone's familiar with, but also the most expensive computationally, and very vulnerable to having to re-layout all sorts of things.

brazzy 2y ago
It's also the most powerful and flexible one, increasing the chance that whatever crazy UI ideas your designers come up with can be implemented relatively easily.

lelanthran 2y ago

> Also, Teams isn't written in 1999 JavaScript. I dunno how relevant that is: 1999 JS performance is closer to 2024 JS performance than 2024 JS performance is to 1999 C++. IOW, just because 2024 JS might be faster by a factor of 2, doesn't mean it's faster at all[1] than the equivalent program written in native code. [1] Maybe it is - I haven't checked benchmarks because programming language benchmarks have almost no correlation to reality when you use the language in a program, because the program is not doing 25k calls to the same function in a while loop.

paulddraper 2y ago
JS aside, there's virtually a 0% chance Teams would be in C++. It'd be in a non-native language, like C#. JavaScript is faster than you think. Miles ahead of Python, Ruby, Perl, PHP. Not too different than C#/Java (especially if you consider 2x to be effectively the same) [1]. [1] https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/ https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- lelanthran 2y ago
  > It'd be in a non-native language, like C#. True; C# is the most obvious choice for Teams. > JavaScript is faster than you think. I'd be very surprised. > Miles ahead of Python, Ruby, Perl, PHP. Depends on "miles" - I think it is within the same order of magnitude as all of those. If it's far off from being in the same order of magnitude of those, I'd be very surprised. > Not too different than C#/Java I don't think so, not for idiomatic usages anyway. Java and C# are pretty damn fast! ISTR that Java/C#/Go are in a different order of magnitude from JS, Python, PHP, etc. (The link doesn't work, btw)
  - paulddraper 2y ago
    JavaScript (V8) is well over an order of magnitude faster than Python (CPython). https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/fastest/python3-node.html https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/... And Java/C# is nowhere even close to an order of magnitude faster than JS. https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/fastest/java-node.html https://benchmarksgame-team.pages.debian.net/benchmarksgame/...