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Ah yes, in UK/USA they like to think that they have their privacy protected and fighting the overreaching government by not having a national ID cards and then

by mrtksn 2y ago

Ah yes, in UK/USA they like to think that they have their privacy protected and fighting the overreaching government by not having a national ID cards and then go ahead and build giant surveillance agencies that spy on them all the time. It's very weird IMHO. It just creates a lot of headache for the illusion of it, yet I like the attitude. The attitude is important because it defines the expectations from the government. Another country where I have living experience is Turkey and Turkey has kick-ass ID system and consolidated online government services. Although its very convenient, it makes you feel like living in a boarding school. You can't do anything without providing your national ID number. Kid you not, they are implementing centralised package tracking system, the companies doing deliveries are required to report every package so the government knows who send stuff to whom at any given time. It's crazy, you feel watched all the time but its alright because the society is already collectivistic and the Turkish attitude expect that kind of control. Bulgaria on the other hand, another country where I have living experience, does have ID system and used to employ national identity number since the communists days feels as free or even more free than UK. In Bulgaria, the government actually doesn't know where you are or what are you up to. When you have some governmental stuff to do you show up with your national ID card.

dfawcus 2y ago
In the UK, it has little to do with privacy per-se, but that we know they will be abused. That being part of the national character which rears is ugly little head from time to time. We kept ID cards after the end of WW2 for a period, until some time in the 50s. They were finally scrapped when a car driver rejected a police demand to see his ID card, and the court case backed him. Parliament got rid of them some time later. Ever since successive governments (of all flavours) have wanted to bring them back, it seems there is an institutional desire for them amongst the mandarins of the civil service. Finally the prior Labour government brought them back in 2006, but the subsequent 2010 coalition government scrapped them. Every party bar Labour had promised to scrap them in their manifestos. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_Cards_Act_2006 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_Cards_Act_2006 So I'd not be surprised if our current GE led to another Labour government, and they brought the ID cards back. At the time, and currently for some (i.e. me) a driving licence was a different document, without a photo. One which one is not obliged to carry while driving.
- mrtksn 2y ago
  > but that we know they will be abused What kind of abuse do you expect?
yencabulator 2y ago
> the companies doing deliveries are required to report every package so the government knows who send stuff to whom at any given time I would be genuinely surprised if this was not true of every current day "western" society. United Stated Postal Service takes, stores, OCRs & shares with law enforcement photos of the cover of every letter you receive.
- em-bee 2y ago
  in germany, austria and switzerland, the sharing of such information is illegal, and at best possible with a warrant. in the european union a general storing of all contact data is also not allowed. member states may only have laws that allow storing such data under very specific circumstances.
  - yencabulator 2y ago
    We are talking about the government being the party that wants the information, so in that environment needing a warrant is not a huge hindrance.
    - em-bee 2y ago
      that statement doesn't make much sense. only certain government institutions can ask for warrants and only judges can issue them. and warrants have to be specific for a cause. so getting this information is protected by all the necessary checks and balances.
      - yencabulator 2y ago
        Five Eyes/NSA/FISA have a history of counterexamples that make me think there's no reason to believe such laws prevent a government from surveilling whatever it wants. If we know for a fact that phone call and internet metadata is routinely stored, I have no reason to expect mail or packages to be any different. (All the protections in that space tend to be for the contents not the metadata.)

by mrtksn 2y ago

dfawcus 2y ago

In the UK, it has little to do with privacy per-se, but that we know they will be abused. That being part of the national character which rears is ugly little head from time to time. We kept ID cards after the end of WW2 for a period, until some time in the 50s. They were finally scrapped when a car driver rejected a police demand to see his ID card, and the court case backed him. Parliament got rid of them some time later. Ever since successive governments (of all flavours) have wanted to bring them back, it seems there is an institutional desire for them amongst the mandarins of the civil service. Finally the prior Labour government brought them back in 2006, but the subsequent 2010 coalition government scrapped them. Every party bar Labour had promised to scrap them in their manifestos. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_Cards_Act_2006 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Identity_Cards_Act_2006 So I'd not be surprised if our current GE led to another Labour government, and they brought the ID cards back. At the time, and currently for some (i.e. me) a driving licence was a different document, without a photo. One which one is not obliged to carry while driving.

mrtksn 2y ago
> but that we know they will be abused What kind of abuse do you expect?

yencabulator 2y ago

> the companies doing deliveries are required to report every package so the government knows who send stuff to whom at any given time I would be genuinely surprised if this was not true of every current day "western" society. United Stated Postal Service takes, stores, OCRs & shares with law enforcement photos of the cover of every letter you receive.

em-bee 2y ago
in germany, austria and switzerland, the sharing of such information is illegal, and at best possible with a warrant. in the european union a general storing of all contact data is also not allowed. member states may only have laws that allow storing such data under very specific circumstances.
- yencabulator 2y ago
  We are talking about the government being the party that wants the information, so in that environment needing a warrant is not a huge hindrance.
  - em-bee 2y ago
    that statement doesn't make much sense. only certain government institutions can ask for warrants and only judges can issue them. and warrants have to be specific for a cause. so getting this information is protected by all the necessary checks and balances.
    - yencabulator 2y ago
      Five Eyes/NSA/FISA have a history of counterexamples that make me think there's no reason to believe such laws prevent a government from surveilling whatever it wants. If we know for a fact that phone call and internet metadata is routinely stored, I have no reason to expect mail or packages to be any different. (All the protections in that space tend to be for the contents not the metadata.)