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> Interesting, so you do support housing the homeless, just as long as you get to take away their freedom. Please review the HN guidelines before posting furth

> Interesting, so you do support housing the homeless, just as long as you get to take away their freedom. Please review the HN guidelines before posting further - this is not acceptable here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

kerkeslager 2y ago
If posting in favor of imprisoning the homeless is acceptable to you, but pointing out how awful that is, isn't, then I'm just not that interested in what's acceptable to you.
- throw10920 2y ago
  > If posting in favor of imprisoning the homeless is acceptable to you, but pointing out how awful that is, isn't You know very well that the problem isn't your opinion but the way that you're expressing it, and your incredibly hostile treatment of other users. HN is a platform for thoughtful discussion of interesting ideas and topics, not advocacy and emotional outbursts. Your kind of behavior isn't wanted here.
  - kerkeslager 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - dang 2y ago
      Can you please stop posting in the flamewar style? You've been doing it a lot lately—not just in this thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40501414 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40501414 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40479386 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40479386 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40136616 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40136616 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40017777 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40017777 This kind of thing is not ok here—it's not what HN is for, and destroys what it is for. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and sticking to the rules from now on, we'd appreciate it.
      - kerkeslager 2y ago
        I understand moderating discussion is extremely hard. I understand that it seems fair at face value for you to just enforce politeness and not enforce ideologies, but that's not actually possible. You are taking a side here, if you decide to censor me, and not the ideologies I'm arguing against. I am not perfect and I should have been a bit more polite in some of the posts you link. People post absolutely reprehensible opinions on this site, and a rational, reasonable response to those opinions is not politeness. The startup community is supportive of and participates in a lot of extremely harmful practices, and believes a lot of harmful ideologies. If espousing ideologies that are literally killing people is allowed by the guidelines, but pointing out how horrific those ideologies are isn't allowed by the guidelines, then the guidelines are effectively supporting those ideologies. Take for example this post which you linked (I'm linking the post it was responding to): > https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40135978 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40135978 The above post I 100% stand by. I think I said that about as politely as I think is possible; any more polite would be miscommunication. If you consider that post a problem, I understand, but I'm not going to comply with that. If that's the case, please just delete my account and all my posts, and I won't attempt to create another account. I'd rather not be associated with a site that's protects reprehensible ideologies in the name of politeness.
        dang 2y ago
        I don't buy that argument because: (1) plenty of HN users post comments from plenty of ideological positions without breaking the site guidelines and (therefore) without getting moderated; and (2) users breaking the site guidelines from all different ideological positions do get moderated. That doesn't fit with "you're taking a side". In my experience the causality goes the other way: when people get moderated they have a strong tendency to jump to "the mods are against my side" rather than look at how their posts are breaking the rules and/or go against the intended spirit of the site. In other words it's not "I got moderated because you're taking a side", it's "you must be taking a side, because I got moderated". So it's probably worth adding: (3) The users who jump to "you're taking a side" are distributed across all the ideologies. There are also users of every ideological view making the case "my ideology is special; it requires me to break the rules, otherwise it cannot properly be communicated". This is disproven by all their co-ideologists who have no trouble communicating similar views without that. I agree with you that https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40136616 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40136616 was not as bad as your other three comments I listed, but it still used the "people like you" trope, which is a flamewar + personal attack combo that leads to forum hell. I don't believe you need personal attack, clichés of internet aggression, etc., to make your case for what you believe in. On the contrary, these things cheapen your position. Morever, they are fungible across all the ideologies—that is, (4) commenters who resort to breaking the site guidelines resemble each another far more than they resemble anyone else. Ideology is not the high-order bit here. By the way, I don't identify with your word "politeness". Enforcing politeness in not at all what we're after, and in that sense I agree with you, though I think you're misassessing what we do as mods. Politeness is profoundly uninspiring as a value, and I'd find it profoundly demotivating if that were the principle. But it's not. The HN guidelines used to say "Be civil", but we changed that years ago to "Be kind", because civility (which I take to be close to politeness) doesn't go deep enough to capture what we want here. Kindness is a far better word. We want people to be in good relational connection with each other, even when they disagree about a topic. That's an ideal, of course, but it's the right ideal for HN, because it's needed in order to optimize for curiosity: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=curiosity%20optimiz%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor....

kerkeslager 2y ago

If posting in favor of imprisoning the homeless is acceptable to you, but pointing out how awful that is, isn't, then I'm just not that interested in what's acceptable to you.

throw10920 2y ago
> If posting in favor of imprisoning the homeless is acceptable to you, but pointing out how awful that is, isn't You know very well that the problem isn't your opinion but the way that you're expressing it, and your incredibly hostile treatment of other users. HN is a platform for thoughtful discussion of interesting ideas and topics, not advocacy and emotional outbursts. Your kind of behavior isn't wanted here.
- kerkeslager 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - dang 2y ago
    Can you please stop posting in the flamewar style? You've been doing it a lot lately—not just in this thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40501414 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40501414 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40479386 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40479386 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40136616 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40136616 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40017777 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40017777 This kind of thing is not ok here—it's not what HN is for, and destroys what it is for. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and sticking to the rules from now on, we'd appreciate it.
    - kerkeslager 2y ago
      I understand moderating discussion is extremely hard. I understand that it seems fair at face value for you to just enforce politeness and not enforce ideologies, but that's not actually possible. You are taking a side here, if you decide to censor me, and not the ideologies I'm arguing against. I am not perfect and I should have been a bit more polite in some of the posts you link. People post absolutely reprehensible opinions on this site, and a rational, reasonable response to those opinions is not politeness. The startup community is supportive of and participates in a lot of extremely harmful practices, and believes a lot of harmful ideologies. If espousing ideologies that are literally killing people is allowed by the guidelines, but pointing out how horrific those ideologies are isn't allowed by the guidelines, then the guidelines are effectively supporting those ideologies. Take for example this post which you linked (I'm linking the post it was responding to): > https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40135978 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40135978 The above post I 100% stand by. I think I said that about as politely as I think is possible; any more polite would be miscommunication. If you consider that post a problem, I understand, but I'm not going to comply with that. If that's the case, please just delete my account and all my posts, and I won't attempt to create another account. I'd rather not be associated with a site that's protects reprehensible ideologies in the name of politeness.
      - dang 2y ago
        I don't buy that argument because: (1) plenty of HN users post comments from plenty of ideological positions without breaking the site guidelines and (therefore) without getting moderated; and (2) users breaking the site guidelines from all different ideological positions do get moderated. That doesn't fit with "you're taking a side". In my experience the causality goes the other way: when people get moderated they have a strong tendency to jump to "the mods are against my side" rather than look at how their posts are breaking the rules and/or go against the intended spirit of the site. In other words it's not "I got moderated because you're taking a side", it's "you must be taking a side, because I got moderated". So it's probably worth adding: (3) The users who jump to "you're taking a side" are distributed across all the ideologies. There are also users of every ideological view making the case "my ideology is special; it requires me to break the rules, otherwise it cannot properly be communicated". This is disproven by all their co-ideologists who have no trouble communicating similar views without that. I agree with you that https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40136616 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40136616 was not as bad as your other three comments I listed, but it still used the "people like you" trope, which is a flamewar + personal attack combo that leads to forum hell. I don't believe you need personal attack, clichés of internet aggression, etc., to make your case for what you believe in. On the contrary, these things cheapen your position. Morever, they are fungible across all the ideologies—that is, (4) commenters who resort to breaking the site guidelines resemble each another far more than they resemble anyone else. Ideology is not the high-order bit here. By the way, I don't identify with your word "politeness". Enforcing politeness in not at all what we're after, and in that sense I agree with you, though I think you're misassessing what we do as mods. Politeness is profoundly uninspiring as a value, and I'd find it profoundly demotivating if that were the principle. But it's not. The HN guidelines used to say "Be civil", but we changed that years ago to "Be kind", because civility (which I take to be close to politeness) doesn't go deep enough to capture what we want here. Kindness is a far better word. We want people to be in good relational connection with each other, even when they disagree about a topic. That's an ideal, of course, but it's the right ideal for HN, because it's needed in order to optimize for curiosity: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sort=byDate&type=comment&query=curiosity%20optimiz%20by:dang https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&sor....