6 ms·

Just be careful with this line of reasoning though please. It's already hard enough for people outside of the USA to access treatment for things like ADHD when

Just be careful with this line of reasoning though please. It's already hard enough for people outside of the USA to access treatment for things like ADHD when they want to, it doesn't help to have a bunch of people walking around saying "it's not actually a disadvantage at all... It's REALLY more of a gift". Without my ADHD meds, I have ZERO ability to actually leverage the "gift" part...

outside415 2y ago
those ADHD meds are exceptionally addictive and long term damaging to your body/heart/mind. be careful.
- wizzwizz4 2y ago
  I imagine it depends on the meds, but I haven't heard about any "exceptionally addictive" ones. Source?
- _yb2s 2y ago
  There are a ton of different classes of ADHD medications that are all very different. The most popular- stimulants like adderall and ritalin are probably the most well studied psychiatric drugs in history, and not without some risk of adverse effects, but overall are quite safe even for young kids. Untreated ADHD itself is far more dangerous than any of the medications: high rates of mortality, suicide, addiction, job loss, relationship difficulties, car accidents, etc. There is also some evidence that giving children stimulant medications for ADHD can make it less likely that they will continue to have ADHD as adults.
  - astrange 2y ago
    The non-stimulant ADHD drugs actually all have worse side effects than the stimulant ones, and they're harder to stop taking. You can quit Vyvanse cold turkey or take it as needed and be pretty OK, but if you quit Strattera it takes weeks to work again once you start it. And you can't quit Intuniv without titrating off for a week or two or you'll feel pretty sick.
- jauer 2y ago
  Maybe addictive to people without ADHD… They are so unaddictive to people with ADHD that remembering to take them can be challenging.
  - _yb2s 2y ago
    I think it has a lot to do with the dose and delivery method... if you take massive doses or inject/snort the medications like people trying to get high on stimulants, the rate at which the drug takes effect causes euphoria, which is addicting. There is no euphoria with properly taken low dose stimulant medications for ADHD- they aren't "enjoyable."
    - utensil4778 2y ago
      Partly, but the main effect is simply the different neurology. Neurotypical people actually get a kind of high from amphetamines, whereas ADHD people just get balanced. The drug just has a fundamentally different effect on people with ADHD.
      - _yb2s 2y ago
        I'm pretty sure that is a myth, and it only appears that way because the circumstances are different: People with ADHD are treated on a very low dose, and slowly titrated up which makes you much less likely to feel high. People without ADHD that are illegally using stimulants aren't getting treated by a doctor, and aren't going to slowly titrate up the dose, or take it consistently in low doses over a long period of time. People with ADHD sometimes do feel a small high or euphoria for a short time when they first start a new medication. People without ADHD but using adderall illegally, e.g. as a "study drug" are not getting a high or euphoria if they consistently use a low dose like an ADHD person. I have clinically diagnosed ADHD, but even the lowest possible dose of adderall makes me extremely high in an uncomfortable way and unable to sleep for days. Most likely, I also have a liver enzyme mutation that causes me to not metabolize amphetamines properly. Ritalin I metabolize quickly, and don't feel a high at all. You can't diagnose ADHD by giving a medication and seeing how people respond. Even people with ADHD respond very differently to the same medications. There is also the fact that medication with ADHD can give people executive control over hyperactive physical movement, so they may seem to be "slowing down," which kind-of looks like the opposite of a stimulant effect, especially to adults watching hyperactive kids calm down. But that is basically the opposite of what is actually happening- the increased stimulation allows the brain to regain executive control of behavior. Here is a journal article reviewing the evidence and debunking this idea: https://www.nature.com/articles/1301164 https://www.nature.com/articles/1301164
- utensil4778 2y ago
  No, they are not.
- astrange 2y ago
  None of those things are true. ADHD people are pretty bad at being addicted to anything, and therapeutic stimulant doses are actually neuroprotective. Just watch your blood pressure, but you should do that anyway.
  - zeroonetwothree 2y ago
    Wait what? It’s the exact opposite. ADHD tends to be correlated with addiction > Research has shown that those with attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) have an increased risk for addiction disorders like alcoholism and substance abuse. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4403287/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4403287/
    - kayodelycaon 2y ago
      Every mental disorder I know of that impairs function has an increased rate of addiction.
    - astrange 2y ago
      Taking ADHD meds reduces the chance of substance abuse though, and it balances out to forgetting to take them being more likely than being addicted. Wait, I forgot to take mine.
- llamaLord 2y ago
  At therapeutic doses this is literally the opposite of true. There have been studies done that show therapeutic doses of amphetamines over a multi-year period actually INCREASED the level of dopamine receptor expression in the brain. It was by a very small amount, don't get me wrong (3-4%). But it absolutely debunked this entirely assumed theory that long term therapeutic amphetamine use would result in some kind of pseudo-addiction.
appletrotter 2y ago
It reminds me of the movements that existed to push for the non-medication of schizophrenic patients, and to treat them as just differently abled. It completely ignores the quality of life impacts that these things can have. Obviously ADHD/Autism is completely different from schizophrenia, but it’s the same principle.
hcfman 2y ago
Well yes, just because it can be helpful doesn't mean that it perse doesn't need to have any help with meds. I am also on ritalin. And I have had an enormous amount of struggles in things in life and I realise were related. But I also have some upside. A bunch more now that I take ritalin.
throwaway2037 2y ago
> It's already hard enough for people outside of the USA to access treatment for things like ADHD when they want to I'm confused here. I would expect that all highly developed countries would provide access to treatment. Do you have any counter-examples, or do I misunderstand your original statement?
- tstrimple 2y ago
  One would expect that. https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/02/health/adderall-shortage-prescription-fills-drop-truveta/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/02/health/adderall-shortage-pres... > About 1 in every 10 people in the US who uses Adderall or similar combination drugs to treat attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) has been affected by an ongoing shortage, a new analysis suggests. > The US Food and Drug Administration announced that Adderall was in shortage in mid-October 2022, and the share of people with ADHD who filled their prescriptions for Adderall and related medications plunged in the following months. > In an exclusive analysis for CNN, data from the health data platform Truveta shows that the prescription fill rate for amphetamine/dextroamphetamine medications fell from nearly 49% in October 2022 to a low of less than 41% in February 2023. Overall, the average monthly prescription fill rate was 11% lower in the first half of 2023 than it was in the first half of 2022, and it did not show steady signs of improvement through the end of 2023.
- unhingedcrouton 2y ago
  It is extremely difficult to get an ADHD / autism diagnosis and the needed support as an adult. Look up clinics dealing with these in your area, then exclude the ones that deal with children only, then exclude those who don't accept new patients unless in acute crisis, then check the wait times to be seen. Then try to actually message the few left and again, exclude those for more.
- llamaLord 2y ago
  > I would expect that all highly developed countries would provide access to treatment. And yet, it's completely illegal for me to travel to Japan for even a day with my ADHD medication. I could be carrying my script, a letter from my doctor, and have literally only a single days supply, and I'd be risking a very serious prison sentence. Outside of North America, even in places like Europe and Australia, ADHD is still close to non-recognised. Take Australia for example, if you assume 2-3% of the population has ADHD, and that every single one of them has to see a psychiatrist once a year to get their medication permit renewed so that their normal doctor can proscribe their medication (which is the legal requirement for ADHD in Australia), it would consume 2x the entire Australian psychiatrist workforce to deliver that many consultations... And that's if they were EXCLUSIVELY seeing ADHD patients...

outside415 2y ago

those ADHD meds are exceptionally addictive and long term damaging to your body/heart/mind. be careful.

wizzwizz4 2y ago
I imagine it depends on the meds, but I haven't heard about any "exceptionally addictive" ones. Source?
_yb2s 2y ago
There are a ton of different classes of ADHD medications that are all very different. The most popular- stimulants like adderall and ritalin are probably the most well studied psychiatric drugs in history, and not without some risk of adverse effects, but overall are quite safe even for young kids. Untreated ADHD itself is far more dangerous than any of the medications: high rates of mortality, suicide, addiction, job loss, relationship difficulties, car accidents, etc. There is also some evidence that giving children stimulant medications for ADHD can make it less likely that they will continue to have ADHD as adults.
- astrange 2y ago
  The non-stimulant ADHD drugs actually all have worse side effects than the stimulant ones, and they're harder to stop taking. You can quit Vyvanse cold turkey or take it as needed and be pretty OK, but if you quit Strattera it takes weeks to work again once you start it. And you can't quit Intuniv without titrating off for a week or two or you'll feel pretty sick.
jauer 2y ago
Maybe addictive to people without ADHD… They are so unaddictive to people with ADHD that remembering to take them can be challenging.
- _yb2s 2y ago
  I think it has a lot to do with the dose and delivery method... if you take massive doses or inject/snort the medications like people trying to get high on stimulants, the rate at which the drug takes effect causes euphoria, which is addicting. There is no euphoria with properly taken low dose stimulant medications for ADHD- they aren't "enjoyable."
  - utensil4778 2y ago
    Partly, but the main effect is simply the different neurology. Neurotypical people actually get a kind of high from amphetamines, whereas ADHD people just get balanced. The drug just has a fundamentally different effect on people with ADHD.
    - _yb2s 2y ago
      I'm pretty sure that is a myth, and it only appears that way because the circumstances are different: People with ADHD are treated on a very low dose, and slowly titrated up which makes you much less likely to feel high. People without ADHD that are illegally using stimulants aren't getting treated by a doctor, and aren't going to slowly titrate up the dose, or take it consistently in low doses over a long period of time. People with ADHD sometimes do feel a small high or euphoria for a short time when they first start a new medication. People without ADHD but using adderall illegally, e.g. as a "study drug" are not getting a high or euphoria if they consistently use a low dose like an ADHD person. I have clinically diagnosed ADHD, but even the lowest possible dose of adderall makes me extremely high in an uncomfortable way and unable to sleep for days. Most likely, I also have a liver enzyme mutation that causes me to not metabolize amphetamines properly. Ritalin I metabolize quickly, and don't feel a high at all. You can't diagnose ADHD by giving a medication and seeing how people respond. Even people with ADHD respond very differently to the same medications. There is also the fact that medication with ADHD can give people executive control over hyperactive physical movement, so they may seem to be "slowing down," which kind-of looks like the opposite of a stimulant effect, especially to adults watching hyperactive kids calm down. But that is basically the opposite of what is actually happening- the increased stimulation allows the brain to regain executive control of behavior. Here is a journal article reviewing the evidence and debunking this idea: https://www.nature.com/articles/1301164 https://www.nature.com/articles/1301164
utensil4778 2y ago
No, they are not.
astrange 2y ago
None of those things are true. ADHD people are pretty bad at being addicted to anything, and therapeutic stimulant doses are actually neuroprotective. Just watch your blood pressure, but you should do that anyway.
- zeroonetwothree 2y ago
  Wait what? It’s the exact opposite. ADHD tends to be correlated with addiction > Research has shown that those with attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) have an increased risk for addiction disorders like alcoholism and substance abuse. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4403287/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4403287/
  - kayodelycaon 2y ago
    Every mental disorder I know of that impairs function has an increased rate of addiction.
  - astrange 2y ago
    Taking ADHD meds reduces the chance of substance abuse though, and it balances out to forgetting to take them being more likely than being addicted. Wait, I forgot to take mine.
llamaLord 2y ago
At therapeutic doses this is literally the opposite of true. There have been studies done that show therapeutic doses of amphetamines over a multi-year period actually INCREASED the level of dopamine receptor expression in the brain. It was by a very small amount, don't get me wrong (3-4%). But it absolutely debunked this entirely assumed theory that long term therapeutic amphetamine use would result in some kind of pseudo-addiction.

appletrotter 2y ago

It reminds me of the movements that existed to push for the non-medication of schizophrenic patients, and to treat them as just differently abled. It completely ignores the quality of life impacts that these things can have. Obviously ADHD/Autism is completely different from schizophrenia, but it’s the same principle.

hcfman 2y ago

Well yes, just because it can be helpful doesn't mean that it perse doesn't need to have any help with meds. I am also on ritalin. And I have had an enormous amount of struggles in things in life and I realise were related. But I also have some upside. A bunch more now that I take ritalin.

throwaway2037 2y ago

> It's already hard enough for people outside of the USA to access treatment for things like ADHD when they want to I'm confused here. I would expect that all highly developed countries would provide access to treatment. Do you have any counter-examples, or do I misunderstand your original statement?

tstrimple 2y ago
One would expect that. https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/02/health/adderall-shortage-prescription-fills-drop-truveta/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2024/04/02/health/adderall-shortage-pres... > About 1 in every 10 people in the US who uses Adderall or similar combination drugs to treat attention-deficit/hyperactivity disorder (ADHD) has been affected by an ongoing shortage, a new analysis suggests. > The US Food and Drug Administration announced that Adderall was in shortage in mid-October 2022, and the share of people with ADHD who filled their prescriptions for Adderall and related medications plunged in the following months. > In an exclusive analysis for CNN, data from the health data platform Truveta shows that the prescription fill rate for amphetamine/dextroamphetamine medications fell from nearly 49% in October 2022 to a low of less than 41% in February 2023. Overall, the average monthly prescription fill rate was 11% lower in the first half of 2023 than it was in the first half of 2022, and it did not show steady signs of improvement through the end of 2023.
unhingedcrouton 2y ago
It is extremely difficult to get an ADHD / autism diagnosis and the needed support as an adult. Look up clinics dealing with these in your area, then exclude the ones that deal with children only, then exclude those who don't accept new patients unless in acute crisis, then check the wait times to be seen. Then try to actually message the few left and again, exclude those for more.
llamaLord 2y ago
> I would expect that all highly developed countries would provide access to treatment. And yet, it's completely illegal for me to travel to Japan for even a day with my ADHD medication. I could be carrying my script, a letter from my doctor, and have literally only a single days supply, and I'd be risking a very serious prison sentence. Outside of North America, even in places like Europe and Australia, ADHD is still close to non-recognised. Take Australia for example, if you assume 2-3% of the population has ADHD, and that every single one of them has to see a psychiatrist once a year to get their medication permit renewed so that their normal doctor can proscribe their medication (which is the legal requirement for ADHD in Australia), it would consume 2x the entire Australian psychiatrist workforce to deliver that many consultations... And that's if they were EXCLUSIVELY seeing ADHD patients...