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> Refusing to pay for a place to live is simply theft and entitlement. Holding other people's basic survival need for ransom is simply theft and entitlement.

> Refusing to pay for a place to live is simply theft and entitlement. Holding other people's basic survival need for ransom is simply theft and entitlement. What makes you think that people are going through all the complexity of squatting if they have the options of paying for a place to live? > If you abolish property rights, your two options are state slavery or anarchy where the strong take whatever they can. Anarchy where the strong (rich) take whatever they can is the situation we have now. Property rights as they currently exist are that rich people have property rights and nobody else does. Unless you start talking solutions to homelessness, it starts to sound like you just don't care about the homeless and you're only interested in maintaining the power that exists.

s1artibartfast 2y ago
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- kerkeslager 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    I support cheap and affordable housing. I support charity for people that are honest members of society. I think unrepentant thieves need to be incarcerated, not because they deserve a housing, but to protect innocent people from their destructive Behavior. >Quoting so you can't retract. I don't think you'll find much agreement there. I think you'll find that you are in the minority. Look at laws for felony theft. I think most people would like even harsher penalties people that steal assets worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. All it takes is seeing it once and people swing very quickly against this kind of behavior. You being hungry does not entitle you to my dinner. You being horny does not entitle you to my body. You being cold does not entitle you to my shelter.
    - kerkeslager 2y ago
      > I think you'll find that you are in the minority. Look at laws for felony theft. I think the laws for felony theft as compared to the laws for murder and rape are pretty solid evidence that rape and murder are considered more serious crimes than theft. And that's setting aside that there are plenty of theft laws that are even less serious than felony theft. In cases where people are stealing to meet their basic needs such as food or housing, it's not uncommon for perpetrators to receive lenient sentences including probation with no prison time. What's your argument for landlordism not being theft? Shouldn't those people get a job too? Or is theft only a crime when poor people do it?
      - s1artibartfast 2y ago
        > What's your argument for landlordism not being theft? Shouldn't those people get a job too? Or is theft only a crime when poor people do it? It is very simple. Theft is when you take something from someone without voluntary agreement. renters and landlords enter voluntary agreement. If a landlord has a job or not seems irrelevant. They didn't steal anything from anyone. Everything they have, they obtained through mutually consensual exchange. How do you think landlordism could be considered theft? Is it just because people need/want shelter that they have? Is a farmer who grows food a thief because people need food to live? Is a doctor a thief because you die without surgery? Is a mechanic a thief because your car needs repair? In my mind, lacking, wanting, or even needing something does not mean that everyone who has it and charges you is a thief.
        kerkeslager 2y ago
        > It is very simple. Theft is when you take something from someone without voluntary agreement. renters and landlords enter voluntary agreement. If a landlord has a job or not seems irrelevant. They didn't steal anything from anyone. Everything they have, they obtained through mutually consensual exchange. Wrong. The vast majority of people don't voluntarily agree to rent, they are coerced. "Pay rent or be homeless" is pretty powerful coercion. > How do you think landlordism could be considered theft? Is it just because people need/want shelter that they have? Stop this "need/want" nonsense. I think we can agree that homes are firmly a human need. People being mad that landlords are driving up housing prices for personal gain isn't just whining that people aren't getting what they want. People need homes. It's theft because people who already have a lot of money, are buying up things that people need, so they can hold them for ransom. Owning things so that others can't own them isn't a benefit to society, and landlords do not provide services (before you trot out the maintenance argument--compare the prices of a handyman to rent). They're just leaches. > Is a farmer who grows food a thief because people need food to live? A farmer grows food, like a builder builds houses. The landlord equivalent for food would be if someone decided to buy up all the world's food and jack up the price, letting people starve to death despite an excess of food rather than compromising their profit model. And that would be murder, not theft. > Is a doctor a thief because you die without surgery? Surgery, unlike a food or house, is a service, not a product. Unlike a landlord, doctors performing surgery is actually doing work. And while the prices of medical care are high in the US to the point that people are dying rather than seeking preventive care, that's largely a function of rent-seeking healthcare companies, not doctors. And that's pretty equivalent to murder, too. Hospitals are in fact required to provide surgery if failure to do so would result in the death of the patient. > Is a mechanic a thief because your car needs repair? Is a car a human need? In some places, maybe, but that's a problem of a society that doesn't provide other forms of transport. Really, though, I'm less interested in defining landlordism=theft. We shouldn't need to prove it fits your arbitrary definition of theft to say it's wrong: if you don't get that causing homelessness for personal gain is wrong, your moral compass is pretty fundamentally broken.
  - throw10920 2y ago
    > Interesting, so you do support housing the homeless, just as long as you get to take away their freedom. Please review the HN guidelines before posting further - this is not acceptable here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
    - kerkeslager 2y ago
      If posting in favor of imprisoning the homeless is acceptable to you, but pointing out how awful that is, isn't, then I'm just not that interested in what's acceptable to you.
      - throw10920 2y ago
        > If posting in favor of imprisoning the homeless is acceptable to you, but pointing out how awful that is, isn't You know very well that the problem isn't your opinion but the way that you're expressing it, and your incredibly hostile treatment of other users. HN is a platform for thoughtful discussion of interesting ideas and topics, not advocacy and emotional outbursts. Your kind of behavior isn't wanted here.
        kerkeslager 2y ago
        [flagged]
        dang 2y ago
        Can you please stop posting in the flamewar style? You've been doing it a lot lately—not just in this thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40501414 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40501414 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40479386 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40479386 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40136616 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40136616 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40017777 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40017777 This kind of thing is not ok here—it's not what HN is for, and destroys what it is for. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and sticking to the rules from now on, we'd appreciate it.

s1artibartfast 2y ago

[flagged]

kerkeslager 2y ago
[flagged]
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  I support cheap and affordable housing. I support charity for people that are honest members of society. I think unrepentant thieves need to be incarcerated, not because they deserve a housing, but to protect innocent people from their destructive Behavior. >Quoting so you can't retract. I don't think you'll find much agreement there. I think you'll find that you are in the minority. Look at laws for felony theft. I think most people would like even harsher penalties people that steal assets worth hundreds of thousands of dollars. All it takes is seeing it once and people swing very quickly against this kind of behavior. You being hungry does not entitle you to my dinner. You being horny does not entitle you to my body. You being cold does not entitle you to my shelter.
  - kerkeslager 2y ago
    > I think you'll find that you are in the minority. Look at laws for felony theft. I think the laws for felony theft as compared to the laws for murder and rape are pretty solid evidence that rape and murder are considered more serious crimes than theft. And that's setting aside that there are plenty of theft laws that are even less serious than felony theft. In cases where people are stealing to meet their basic needs such as food or housing, it's not uncommon for perpetrators to receive lenient sentences including probation with no prison time. What's your argument for landlordism not being theft? Shouldn't those people get a job too? Or is theft only a crime when poor people do it?
    - s1artibartfast 2y ago
      > What's your argument for landlordism not being theft? Shouldn't those people get a job too? Or is theft only a crime when poor people do it? It is very simple. Theft is when you take something from someone without voluntary agreement. renters and landlords enter voluntary agreement. If a landlord has a job or not seems irrelevant. They didn't steal anything from anyone. Everything they have, they obtained through mutually consensual exchange. How do you think landlordism could be considered theft? Is it just because people need/want shelter that they have? Is a farmer who grows food a thief because people need food to live? Is a doctor a thief because you die without surgery? Is a mechanic a thief because your car needs repair? In my mind, lacking, wanting, or even needing something does not mean that everyone who has it and charges you is a thief.
      - kerkeslager 2y ago
        > It is very simple. Theft is when you take something from someone without voluntary agreement. renters and landlords enter voluntary agreement. If a landlord has a job or not seems irrelevant. They didn't steal anything from anyone. Everything they have, they obtained through mutually consensual exchange. Wrong. The vast majority of people don't voluntarily agree to rent, they are coerced. "Pay rent or be homeless" is pretty powerful coercion. > How do you think landlordism could be considered theft? Is it just because people need/want shelter that they have? Stop this "need/want" nonsense. I think we can agree that homes are firmly a human need. People being mad that landlords are driving up housing prices for personal gain isn't just whining that people aren't getting what they want. People need homes. It's theft because people who already have a lot of money, are buying up things that people need, so they can hold them for ransom. Owning things so that others can't own them isn't a benefit to society, and landlords do not provide services (before you trot out the maintenance argument--compare the prices of a handyman to rent). They're just leaches. > Is a farmer who grows food a thief because people need food to live? A farmer grows food, like a builder builds houses. The landlord equivalent for food would be if someone decided to buy up all the world's food and jack up the price, letting people starve to death despite an excess of food rather than compromising their profit model. And that would be murder, not theft. > Is a doctor a thief because you die without surgery? Surgery, unlike a food or house, is a service, not a product. Unlike a landlord, doctors performing surgery is actually doing work. And while the prices of medical care are high in the US to the point that people are dying rather than seeking preventive care, that's largely a function of rent-seeking healthcare companies, not doctors. And that's pretty equivalent to murder, too. Hospitals are in fact required to provide surgery if failure to do so would result in the death of the patient. > Is a mechanic a thief because your car needs repair? Is a car a human need? In some places, maybe, but that's a problem of a society that doesn't provide other forms of transport. Really, though, I'm less interested in defining landlordism=theft. We shouldn't need to prove it fits your arbitrary definition of theft to say it's wrong: if you don't get that causing homelessness for personal gain is wrong, your moral compass is pretty fundamentally broken.
- throw10920 2y ago
  > Interesting, so you do support housing the homeless, just as long as you get to take away their freedom. Please review the HN guidelines before posting further - this is not acceptable here. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - kerkeslager 2y ago
    If posting in favor of imprisoning the homeless is acceptable to you, but pointing out how awful that is, isn't, then I'm just not that interested in what's acceptable to you.
    - throw10920 2y ago
      > If posting in favor of imprisoning the homeless is acceptable to you, but pointing out how awful that is, isn't You know very well that the problem isn't your opinion but the way that you're expressing it, and your incredibly hostile treatment of other users. HN is a platform for thoughtful discussion of interesting ideas and topics, not advocacy and emotional outbursts. Your kind of behavior isn't wanted here.
      - kerkeslager 2y ago
        [flagged]
        dang 2y ago
        Can you please stop posting in the flamewar style? You've been doing it a lot lately—not just in this thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40501414 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40501414 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40479386 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40479386 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40136616 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40136616 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40017777 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=40017777 This kind of thing is not ok here—it's not what HN is for, and destroys what it is for. If you wouldn't mind reviewing https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and sticking to the rules from now on, we'd appreciate it.