6 ms·

So is it in some sense similar to having a brain tumour? Some part of the brain is growing too much and depriving others of space?

by im3w1l 2y ago

Rhapso 2y ago
I'm biased to the evolutionary argument that neurodiversity is a survival trait in social animals. This theory, especially if the outcome is effectively random bias in cognitive development, would fit that.
- Rinzler89 2y ago
  >I'm biased to the evolutionary argument that neurodiversity is a survival trait in social animals. Can you please explain what you mean by this?
  - Rhapso 2y ago
    https://society5.com/leadership/neurodiversity-evolution/ https://society5.com/leadership/neurodiversity-evolution/ seems a decent summary
    - Rinzler89 2y ago
      But to me that reads like different statement than yours of neurodiversity being a survival trait, to which I have to disagree. Being a neurodiverse, or more commonly known "on the spectrum", is a guaranteed way to get bullied (or worse) by your peers who are not. How is that supposed to help with survival? Some neurodiverse kids and even adults get bullied so hard they commit self termination (to avoid using the 's' word). That's exactly the opposite of helping with survival. Helping with survival to me means having features that help you get accepted by the heard and with finding a mate to reproduce, not features that get you shunned and outcasted till you end up wirtten off the gene pool.
      - hcfman 2y ago
        That’s a bit simplistic. They might also invent a personal computer the income from which very much helps them survive.
        Rinzler89 2y ago
        You don't need to invent something that makes you a billionaire to survive. Plenty of dumbass people out there survive just fine. Survival to me means having a happy life with friends and family and passing your genes on, not being a quirky, lonely tech billionaire.
        Rhapso 2y ago
        The root misunderstanding is the "social species" part of my statement. Neurodiversity benefits the species, so it will be selected for as a survival trait for the species, even if it is recessive or those who express it never reproduce. Those "genetically adjacent" benefit and keep the traits alive If you think survival traits mean being healthy and happy, ask Darwin why the evolution of caterpillars killed his faith in god.
      - Rhapso 2y ago
        Like all variation in traits, going beyond 2 standard deviations tends to not be beneficial. We don't get to have variation without also having the potential for too much of it. Welcome to the messy stochastic search algorithm that is online approximator for Causal Entropic Force.
      - sleepydog 2y ago
        I see it more as a survival trait for a population, not an individual. An individual does not need to procreate for a population to benefit from any trait they may have. In that sense, the trait may be a disadvantage for the individual, but increase the well-being of the population at large. An unimaginative example would be an autistic individual whose condition enables them to make a life-saving scientific or mathematical breakthrough, but due to the same condition ultimately dies alone and childless.
      - 2y ago
- natpalmer1776 2y ago
  Neurodiversity as an evolutionary survival trait is such a beautiful concept I haven't heard before, but it makes so much sense! I think the concept pairs really well with the idea of social selection as a derivative of natural selection in which social structures create natural divisions in a population's gene expression to disfavor traits that don't benefit the population even if they benefit the individual.
  - coldtea 2y ago
    Here's some stuff on that: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/adhd-traits-might-have-helped-hunter-gatherers-collect-more-food-while-foraging-study-suggests-180983824/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/adhd-traits-might-... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter_versus_farmer_hypothesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter_versus_farmer_hypothesi... https://theconversation.com/how-our-autistic-ancestors-played-an-important-role-in-human-evolution-73477 https://theconversation.com/how-our-autistic-ancestors-playe... https://hms.harvard.edu/news/autism-evolution https://hms.harvard.edu/news/autism-evolution https://www.wired.com/story/autism-ancestors-evolution/ https://www.wired.com/story/autism-ancestors-evolution/
- emptysongglass 2y ago
  We don't need to turn all pathologies into a positive trait to be cherished. We see this all too often today with e.g. ADHD (from which I suffer). They are not our superhero abilities and they often come with extremely debilitating consequences. I know many people on the spectrum and they suffer.
  - Rhapso 2y ago
    Oh agreed, but all "positive attributes" are problems at extremes. I think this is similar. Literally everything we pathologize around mental health (that isn't a direct deficit) is "normal at lower intensities"
  - twojacobtwo 2y ago
    I also suffer from ADD (non-H type). While I definitely acknowledge the validity of your point, having a view of the other side of the coin often helps to cope with these things. Not just cope, but moreso to keep in mind where we might best apply our efforts to have the greatest effect in our favor. It certainly helped me to have things reframed in such ways. I think it's more a matter of degrees than a wholesale one view vs the other.
    - _yb2s 2y ago
      ADD has been renamed inattentive-type ADHD
      - twojacobtwo 2y ago
        I didn't know that. Thank you. I'll probably stick with ADD for most things though, because it seems like it's easier to say (barring my own qualifier for clarity) and people generally understand the distinction already. But this will be helpful in more technical circumstances, I imagine.
        _yb2s 2y ago
        Nowadays the term ADD isn't even used casually by doctors or other people with ADHD... if someone told me they had ADD I would assume they were either self diagnosed, or diagnosed a long time ago and self treating, but not communicating with doctors or the ADHD community for at least a decade. The latter is important because there have been HUGE advances in practical advice on managing ADHD. Look at podcasts like "Hacking ADHD" and "How To ADHD."
kylebenzle 2y ago
They are not similar at all really. Autism is correlated to, "accelerated formation of neurons"(1) and "an increase in the number of neural connections"(2). That partially explains some savant-like traits being connected to autism. Outside of that John Travolta movie where he got the brain tumor and got super smart I don't think people are evolving tumors to increase intelligence. [1] Article [2] https://medicine.wustl.edu/news/in-autism-too-many-brain-connections-may-be-at-root-of-condition/ https://medicine.wustl.edu/news/in-autism-too-many-brain-con...
sharpshadow 2y ago
I would say no. A tumour is locally and doesn’t cover the whole brain as they found out that autism is linked to overall more brain organelles.
robwwilliams 2y ago
No. We are far from a “common cause” answer to autism or many other neurodevelopmental and psychiatric conditions.

So is it in some sense similar to having a brain tumour? Some part of the brain is growing too much and depriving others of space?

by im3w1l 2y ago

So is it in some sense similar to having a brain tumour? Some part of the brain is growing too much and depriving others of space?

Rhapso 2y ago

I'm biased to the evolutionary argument that neurodiversity is a survival trait in social animals. This theory, especially if the outcome is effectively random bias in cognitive development, would fit that.

Rinzler89 2y ago
>I'm biased to the evolutionary argument that neurodiversity is a survival trait in social animals. Can you please explain what you mean by this?
- Rhapso 2y ago
  https://society5.com/leadership/neurodiversity-evolution/ https://society5.com/leadership/neurodiversity-evolution/ seems a decent summary
  - Rinzler89 2y ago
    But to me that reads like different statement than yours of neurodiversity being a survival trait, to which I have to disagree. Being a neurodiverse, or more commonly known "on the spectrum", is a guaranteed way to get bullied (or worse) by your peers who are not. How is that supposed to help with survival? Some neurodiverse kids and even adults get bullied so hard they commit self termination (to avoid using the 's' word). That's exactly the opposite of helping with survival. Helping with survival to me means having features that help you get accepted by the heard and with finding a mate to reproduce, not features that get you shunned and outcasted till you end up wirtten off the gene pool.
    - hcfman 2y ago
      That’s a bit simplistic. They might also invent a personal computer the income from which very much helps them survive.
      - Rinzler89 2y ago
        You don't need to invent something that makes you a billionaire to survive. Plenty of dumbass people out there survive just fine. Survival to me means having a happy life with friends and family and passing your genes on, not being a quirky, lonely tech billionaire.
        Rhapso 2y ago
        The root misunderstanding is the "social species" part of my statement. Neurodiversity benefits the species, so it will be selected for as a survival trait for the species, even if it is recessive or those who express it never reproduce. Those "genetically adjacent" benefit and keep the traits alive If you think survival traits mean being healthy and happy, ask Darwin why the evolution of caterpillars killed his faith in god.
    - Rhapso 2y ago
      Like all variation in traits, going beyond 2 standard deviations tends to not be beneficial. We don't get to have variation without also having the potential for too much of it. Welcome to the messy stochastic search algorithm that is online approximator for Causal Entropic Force.
    - sleepydog 2y ago
      I see it more as a survival trait for a population, not an individual. An individual does not need to procreate for a population to benefit from any trait they may have. In that sense, the trait may be a disadvantage for the individual, but increase the well-being of the population at large. An unimaginative example would be an autistic individual whose condition enables them to make a life-saving scientific or mathematical breakthrough, but due to the same condition ultimately dies alone and childless.
    - 2y ago
natpalmer1776 2y ago
Neurodiversity as an evolutionary survival trait is such a beautiful concept I haven't heard before, but it makes so much sense! I think the concept pairs really well with the idea of social selection as a derivative of natural selection in which social structures create natural divisions in a population's gene expression to disfavor traits that don't benefit the population even if they benefit the individual.
- coldtea 2y ago
  Here's some stuff on that: https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/adhd-traits-might-have-helped-hunter-gatherers-collect-more-food-while-foraging-study-suggests-180983824/ https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/adhd-traits-might-... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter_versus_farmer_hypothesis https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hunter_versus_farmer_hypothesi... https://theconversation.com/how-our-autistic-ancestors-played-an-important-role-in-human-evolution-73477 https://theconversation.com/how-our-autistic-ancestors-playe... https://hms.harvard.edu/news/autism-evolution https://hms.harvard.edu/news/autism-evolution https://www.wired.com/story/autism-ancestors-evolution/ https://www.wired.com/story/autism-ancestors-evolution/
emptysongglass 2y ago
We don't need to turn all pathologies into a positive trait to be cherished. We see this all too often today with e.g. ADHD (from which I suffer). They are not our superhero abilities and they often come with extremely debilitating consequences. I know many people on the spectrum and they suffer.
- Rhapso 2y ago
  Oh agreed, but all "positive attributes" are problems at extremes. I think this is similar. Literally everything we pathologize around mental health (that isn't a direct deficit) is "normal at lower intensities"
- twojacobtwo 2y ago
  I also suffer from ADD (non-H type). While I definitely acknowledge the validity of your point, having a view of the other side of the coin often helps to cope with these things. Not just cope, but moreso to keep in mind where we might best apply our efforts to have the greatest effect in our favor. It certainly helped me to have things reframed in such ways. I think it's more a matter of degrees than a wholesale one view vs the other.
  - _yb2s 2y ago
    ADD has been renamed inattentive-type ADHD
    - twojacobtwo 2y ago
      I didn't know that. Thank you. I'll probably stick with ADD for most things though, because it seems like it's easier to say (barring my own qualifier for clarity) and people generally understand the distinction already. But this will be helpful in more technical circumstances, I imagine.
      - _yb2s 2y ago
        Nowadays the term ADD isn't even used casually by doctors or other people with ADHD... if someone told me they had ADD I would assume they were either self diagnosed, or diagnosed a long time ago and self treating, but not communicating with doctors or the ADHD community for at least a decade. The latter is important because there have been HUGE advances in practical advice on managing ADHD. Look at podcasts like "Hacking ADHD" and "How To ADHD."

kylebenzle 2y ago

They are not similar at all really. Autism is correlated to, "accelerated formation of neurons"(1) and "an increase in the number of neural connections"(2). That partially explains some savant-like traits being connected to autism. Outside of that John Travolta movie where he got the brain tumor and got super smart I don't think people are evolving tumors to increase intelligence. [1] Article [2] https://medicine.wustl.edu/news/in-autism-too-many-brain-connections-may-be-at-root-of-condition/ https://medicine.wustl.edu/news/in-autism-too-many-brain-con...

sharpshadow 2y ago

I would say no. A tumour is locally and doesn’t cover the whole brain as they found out that autism is linked to overall more brain organelles.

robwwilliams 2y ago

No. We are far from a “common cause” answer to autism or many other neurodevelopmental and psychiatric conditions.