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The Stasi in Cold War East Germany reportedly had 1 informant for every 6.5 people, or 15% of the population informing on their neighbors. That's the kind of sc

The Stasi in Cold War East Germany reportedly had 1 informant for every 6.5 people, or 15% of the population informing on their neighbors. That's the kind of scale that is needed for total analogue surveillance.

red_admiral 2y ago
And then the CCP looked at what the CCCP did, thought "that's cute" and optimised it until they'd invented the social credit score. It turns out digital is the way to go for scale.
- WaffleIronMaker 2y ago
  I get where you're coming from, but I think it's important to keep in mind that there is no centralized score for Chinese citizens, and that such claims are often sensationalized. [1] However, I'd agree that China is a good example of high degrees of surveillance. [1] https://merics.org/en/comment/chinas-social-credit-score-untangling-myth-reality https://merics.org/en/comment/chinas-social-credit-score-unt...
- ToucanLoucan 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - dragonwriter 2y ago
    > I love how every American is so ready to jump on the China hate train for their social credit score thing when it's literally the same goddamned thing as a credit score in America, with like, some added shit about public shaming The “added shit about public shaming” is not a trivial issue, and also Americans aren't particularly fond of actual credit scores or the broader credit reporting system they are part of, either. Like, there is nothing hypocritical about viewing extra negatively another society that has taken a disliked element of your own and made it worse.
    - ToucanLoucan 2y ago
      > The “added shit about public shaming” is not a trivial issue I think it could be considered trivial given how much of your life can be made an utter hell by a bad credit score. Things like not being able to finance a house when you already spend more per month on rent than a mortgage, being forced into predatory financial products because you lack the ability to get regular ones, refusal for companies to hire you for work based on your credit score, your credit history just being wrong and being saddled with the task of probably hundreds of hours of work and god knows how much money to fix it because none of the providers give a shit about helping you, the risks with identity theft, on and on and on. As someone who has had to unfuck my credit due to idiocy in financial institutions that was completely, 100% not my fault and yet fell solely on my shoulders to handle, I assure you it is a special circle of bureaucratic hell that would easily stand toe-to-toe with the worst any governments have to offer. Is it GOOD that it has mechanisms for that? No. But again, I emphasize: we add that ourselves to it all the same. And yes it's definitely worse when it's inscribed in the law's text, but I wouldn't say it's that different either. > Like, there is nothing hypocritical about viewing extra negatively another society that has taken a disliked element of your own and made it worse. Oh sure, 100%, but that presupposes that the commenter in question thinks credit reports are bad. And yeah, a fair number of Americans hate them, but like with a lot of things Americans hate, they'll also say shit like "well that's just how it is." But apparently such status-quo allyship doesn't cross into China.
      - dragonwriter 2y ago
        > I think it could be considered trivial given how much of your life can be made an utter hell by a bad credit score The scope of damage increases, rather than decreases, the significance of expanding the set of inputs that can contribute to the damage.
    - Cheer2171 2y ago
      So why does almost every US landlord use credit scores to screen renters?
      - 2y ago
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - sickofparadox 2y ago
    A person with no credit or a low credit score is still allowed to buy train tickets and leave their hometown. A person with high credit score is not punished in any way for interacting with a person with a low credit score. Credit scores in the United States do not incentivize families cutting off contact with members who do not support the ruling party. To say that "they are essentially the same" is to run cover for the most objectionable parts because you are mad that creditors want a way to determine if someone is going to cut and run with their money.
    - _DeadFred_ 2y ago
      The government is allowed to 'unbank' you, or to at least push banks to 'voluntarily' 'unbank' you. Having your bank accounts closed and credit cards all canceled summarily is going to hurt your credit score, which in turn is going to make renting a place to live very difficult.
      - sickofparadox 2y ago
        Could you provide an example of the government pushing for someone to be unbanked? Preferably someone not guilty of some kind of finance crime (or accused and on the run).
- darby_nine 2y ago
  TBH this doesn't seem much different than what western credit warehousers (e.g. transunion/equifax/experian) do.
- holoduke 2y ago
  If the west had a creditscore, mine would be very very low. I am banned on almost every social medium. C, FB, insta, tiktok, reddit, google and more. Its pretty tough sometimes to survive on the internet without having access to all. (Although most still have read access)

red_admiral 2y ago

And then the CCP looked at what the CCCP did, thought "that's cute" and optimised it until they'd invented the social credit score. It turns out digital is the way to go for scale.

WaffleIronMaker 2y ago
I get where you're coming from, but I think it's important to keep in mind that there is no centralized score for Chinese citizens, and that such claims are often sensationalized. [1] However, I'd agree that China is a good example of high degrees of surveillance. [1] https://merics.org/en/comment/chinas-social-credit-score-untangling-myth-reality https://merics.org/en/comment/chinas-social-credit-score-unt...
ToucanLoucan 2y ago
[flagged]
- dragonwriter 2y ago
  > I love how every American is so ready to jump on the China hate train for their social credit score thing when it's literally the same goddamned thing as a credit score in America, with like, some added shit about public shaming The “added shit about public shaming” is not a trivial issue, and also Americans aren't particularly fond of actual credit scores or the broader credit reporting system they are part of, either. Like, there is nothing hypocritical about viewing extra negatively another society that has taken a disliked element of your own and made it worse.
  - ToucanLoucan 2y ago
    > The “added shit about public shaming” is not a trivial issue I think it could be considered trivial given how much of your life can be made an utter hell by a bad credit score. Things like not being able to finance a house when you already spend more per month on rent than a mortgage, being forced into predatory financial products because you lack the ability to get regular ones, refusal for companies to hire you for work based on your credit score, your credit history just being wrong and being saddled with the task of probably hundreds of hours of work and god knows how much money to fix it because none of the providers give a shit about helping you, the risks with identity theft, on and on and on. As someone who has had to unfuck my credit due to idiocy in financial institutions that was completely, 100% not my fault and yet fell solely on my shoulders to handle, I assure you it is a special circle of bureaucratic hell that would easily stand toe-to-toe with the worst any governments have to offer. Is it GOOD that it has mechanisms for that? No. But again, I emphasize: we add that ourselves to it all the same. And yes it's definitely worse when it's inscribed in the law's text, but I wouldn't say it's that different either. > Like, there is nothing hypocritical about viewing extra negatively another society that has taken a disliked element of your own and made it worse. Oh sure, 100%, but that presupposes that the commenter in question thinks credit reports are bad. And yeah, a fair number of Americans hate them, but like with a lot of things Americans hate, they'll also say shit like "well that's just how it is." But apparently such status-quo allyship doesn't cross into China.
    - dragonwriter 2y ago
      > I think it could be considered trivial given how much of your life can be made an utter hell by a bad credit score The scope of damage increases, rather than decreases, the significance of expanding the set of inputs that can contribute to the damage.
  - Cheer2171 2y ago
    So why does almost every US landlord use credit scores to screen renters?
    - 2y ago
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- sickofparadox 2y ago
  A person with no credit or a low credit score is still allowed to buy train tickets and leave their hometown. A person with high credit score is not punished in any way for interacting with a person with a low credit score. Credit scores in the United States do not incentivize families cutting off contact with members who do not support the ruling party. To say that "they are essentially the same" is to run cover for the most objectionable parts because you are mad that creditors want a way to determine if someone is going to cut and run with their money.
  - _DeadFred_ 2y ago
    The government is allowed to 'unbank' you, or to at least push banks to 'voluntarily' 'unbank' you. Having your bank accounts closed and credit cards all canceled summarily is going to hurt your credit score, which in turn is going to make renting a place to live very difficult.
    - sickofparadox 2y ago
      Could you provide an example of the government pushing for someone to be unbanked? Preferably someone not guilty of some kind of finance crime (or accused and on the run).
darby_nine 2y ago
TBH this doesn't seem much different than what western credit warehousers (e.g. transunion/equifax/experian) do.
holoduke 2y ago
If the west had a creditscore, mine would be very very low. I am banned on almost every social medium. C, FB, insta, tiktok, reddit, google and more. Its pretty tough sometimes to survive on the internet without having access to all. (Although most still have read access)