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I studied art history, and this always bothered me when learning about Christian symbolism. When reading about numbers related to cathedrals, such as the number

I studied art history, and this always bothered me when learning about Christian symbolism. When reading about numbers related to cathedrals, such as the number of statues on a ledge or the number of archivolts (the bands around doors), so much emphasis was put on the meaning of these particular numbers by whoever authored the piece. Three related to the Holy Trinity, four represented the four Gospels, five alluded to the number of wounds Christ received, seven related to the days of creation, sins, or virtues - and don't even get me started on twelve. In fact, as an architect of a cathedral, you pretty much had to make 22 or more of anything to avoid having a meaning ascribed.

dfxm12 2y ago
One Christmas homily, the priest told a story about how the candy cane was invented by persecuted Christians as a symbol for each other. The cane looked like a shepherd's staff, red for Jesus' blood, etc. If you look into the actual history of the candy cane though, none of this is true. What I'm saying is that it didn't matter what the architect did. Someone, well after the fact, would have found a tenuous connection between their work and the Bible and claimed they were divinely inspired.
- mensetmanusman 2y ago
  Not the candy cane, but the fish: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variations_of_the_ichthys_symbol#:~:text=The%20ichthys%20symbol%20(or%20%22Jesus,with%20or%20affinity%20for%20Christianity https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variations_of_the_ichthys_sy....
  - 082349872349872 2y ago
    Might the fish have anything to do with precession of the equinoxes into Pisces? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38761574 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38761574
    - mmcdermott 2y ago
      The fish was derived from a Greek acronym. The wikipedia link above mentions this as well. Is there any evidence for an astrological significance?
    - baruz 2y ago
      No, “fish” in Greek is ιχθυς, which was used as an acrostic for Iesous Christos Theou Huios Soter, Jesus Christ, Son of God, savior. I vaguely recall seeing somewhere that during the persecutions, one Christian would draw one line of the two-line symbol as a shibboleth for another to complete to show that they too were Christian.
      - 082349872349872 2y ago
        As far as I can tell from a cursory search, our evidence for ιχθυς dates from II and later, which would indeed put it firmly in a "fisher of men" or "loaves and fishes" interpretation and not an astrological one. Thanks!
mensetmanusman 2y ago
Humans sacrificed animals when relations between abstract numbers and reality were discovered: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagoreanism https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagoreanism The practice of wonder surrounding numbers and their role in existence has been practiced by nearly every ancient civilization for many millennia. Definitely not unique to Christianity. Definitely as natural as religious practice itself.
- seanhunter 2y ago
  Humans may have done that, but not the Pythagoreans, who were vegetarians. From that wiki page: > The Pythagoreans also thought that animals were sentient and minimally rational. The arguments advanced by Pythagoreans convinced numerous of their philosopher contemporaries to adopt a vegetarian diet. The Pythagorean sense of kinship with non-humans positioned them as a counterculture in the dominant meat-eating culture.
noduerme 2y ago
Wasn't the whole point of building the thing to make physical all that symbolic stuff in the first place?
- calvinmorrison 2y ago
  The temple _is_ God's physical dwelling place
- fwungy 2y ago
  The buildings are more than symbols, we have no clue how they were built, just theories, but remember there were no power tools before 1895. There were no cranes. Those massive Roman columns, were carved in perfect symmetry by hand tools? The beings who built the cathedrals had methods and technologies of amazing power that we know virtually nothing about. They are artifacts of something that is now, presumably, gone.

dfxm12 2y ago

One Christmas homily, the priest told a story about how the candy cane was invented by persecuted Christians as a symbol for each other. The cane looked like a shepherd's staff, red for Jesus' blood, etc. If you look into the actual history of the candy cane though, none of this is true. What I'm saying is that it didn't matter what the architect did. Someone, well after the fact, would have found a tenuous connection between their work and the Bible and claimed they were divinely inspired.

mensetmanusman 2y ago
Not the candy cane, but the fish: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variations_of_the_ichthys_symbol#:~:text=The%20ichthys%20symbol%20(or%20%22Jesus,with%20or%20affinity%20for%20Christianity https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variations_of_the_ichthys_sy....
- 082349872349872 2y ago
  Might the fish have anything to do with precession of the equinoxes into Pisces? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38761574 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38761574
  - mmcdermott 2y ago
    The fish was derived from a Greek acronym. The wikipedia link above mentions this as well. Is there any evidence for an astrological significance?
  - baruz 2y ago
    No, “fish” in Greek is ιχθυς, which was used as an acrostic for Iesous Christos Theou Huios Soter, Jesus Christ, Son of God, savior. I vaguely recall seeing somewhere that during the persecutions, one Christian would draw one line of the two-line symbol as a shibboleth for another to complete to show that they too were Christian.
    - 082349872349872 2y ago
      As far as I can tell from a cursory search, our evidence for ιχθυς dates from II and later, which would indeed put it firmly in a "fisher of men" or "loaves and fishes" interpretation and not an astrological one. Thanks!

mensetmanusman 2y ago

Humans sacrificed animals when relations between abstract numbers and reality were discovered: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagoreanism https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythagoreanism The practice of wonder surrounding numbers and their role in existence has been practiced by nearly every ancient civilization for many millennia. Definitely not unique to Christianity. Definitely as natural as religious practice itself.

seanhunter 2y ago
Humans may have done that, but not the Pythagoreans, who were vegetarians. From that wiki page: > The Pythagoreans also thought that animals were sentient and minimally rational. The arguments advanced by Pythagoreans convinced numerous of their philosopher contemporaries to adopt a vegetarian diet. The Pythagorean sense of kinship with non-humans positioned them as a counterculture in the dominant meat-eating culture.

noduerme 2y ago

Wasn't the whole point of building the thing to make physical all that symbolic stuff in the first place?

calvinmorrison 2y ago
The temple _is_ God's physical dwelling place
fwungy 2y ago
The buildings are more than symbols, we have no clue how they were built, just theories, but remember there were no power tools before 1895. There were no cranes. Those massive Roman columns, were carved in perfect symmetry by hand tools? The beings who built the cathedrals had methods and technologies of amazing power that we know virtually nothing about. They are artifacts of something that is now, presumably, gone.