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The argument doesn't quite work imo because farmers are actively working against the normal ecosystem - we don't want the normal plants to grow there, we want o

The argument doesn't quite work imo because farmers are actively working against the normal ecosystem - we don't want the normal plants to grow there, we want our desired crops. With enough production for us to feed the world and to give farmers a living wage. I still think it's doable (but not if we also want to feed many times our mass in lifestock), but it's not easy.

hawski 2y ago
Farmers also want to have a large swaths of a monoculture plant, because it is easy then to mechanize. That goes, as you say, against the normal ecosystem. Permaculture gardens look much different, but you can't easily mechanize that.
- Scarblac 2y ago
  Yes, and the more manual labor it needs, the more time intensive it is, the harder it is for someone to make a living.
maxbond 2y ago
I don't want to argue the point (but I also am not dismissing your points, the position I put forward is definitely not unassailable), but I think there's an opportunity to make my original point better here, which is; sometimes we get trapped in the logic of our own systems and fail to think outside the box. Is it monoculture or low-N culture really required? Or is it a local optimum we lack the imagination to see beyond? What got you here might not get you there. You can go really far with a monolithic web app running on top of a relational database. But if you scale far enough, you'll need to pull some pieces out and hook them up to databases with relaxed constraints. There are good engineering reasons for us to do things the way we do them, and maybe it was the only feasible way for us to get to this point. But presumably if we continue to grow, we will enter a different phase with a different set of tradeoffs. That phase will probably involve exerting less control, it will probably also involve worse unit economics, but may also scale further with fewer externalities.

hawski 2y ago

Farmers also want to have a large swaths of a monoculture plant, because it is easy then to mechanize. That goes, as you say, against the normal ecosystem. Permaculture gardens look much different, but you can't easily mechanize that.

Scarblac 2y ago
Yes, and the more manual labor it needs, the more time intensive it is, the harder it is for someone to make a living.

maxbond 2y ago

I don't want to argue the point (but I also am not dismissing your points, the position I put forward is definitely not unassailable), but I think there's an opportunity to make my original point better here, which is; sometimes we get trapped in the logic of our own systems and fail to think outside the box. Is it monoculture or low-N culture really required? Or is it a local optimum we lack the imagination to see beyond? What got you here might not get you there. You can go really far with a monolithic web app running on top of a relational database. But if you scale far enough, you'll need to pull some pieces out and hook them up to databases with relaxed constraints. There are good engineering reasons for us to do things the way we do them, and maybe it was the only feasible way for us to get to this point. But presumably if we continue to grow, we will enter a different phase with a different set of tradeoffs. That phase will probably involve exerting less control, it will probably also involve worse unit economics, but may also scale further with fewer externalities.