5 ms·

And old rotten building sitting anywhere in a city is worth way more than 10.000€. Even if the building is not in good shape, the land is still valuable.

p_l 2y ago
Many property tax systems are based around value of the building, not the land. I think Japan is one of the outliers where pretty much all property value is locked with the land itself, as buildings depreciate not appreciate.
ncruces 2y ago
Right, and then the 80yo people living in a centenary house in a gentrified neighborhood suddenly get a 10x tax increase because the next door building got sold to be remodeled as a luxury condo, and drove property values through the roof. That's good, because if they can't pay, their house is up for remodelling too. /sarcasm
- Planktonne 2y ago
  If the 80yo people are living in the house, then it isn't vacant.
  - ncruces 2y ago
    That's not how property taxes work here. Also, you need to figure out how you define vacant, and how to track it. If I relocated for work, and use the house 3 months a year and every other month for a weekend, is it vacant? How do you tell?
    - harimau777 2y ago
      It seems to me that we could start with a conservative approach and adjust from there. For example, define a property as vacant if it isn't occupied for 1 continuous month or a total of three months out of the year.
    - emberfiend 2y ago
      Yes, we are discussing a hypothetical, from a few parents up: "set a property tax that would hurt if the buildings became vacant" The definition of vacant is something that would have to be figured out, but it's not impossible. For example, you could do a generous 6-12 months of the year occupation without taxation, and then a sliding scale from there. (So you pay 0% of the new tax at 12 months yearly occupation, 0% at 6 months, 50% at 3 months, and 100% at 0 months.)
- RyanHamilton 2y ago
  I'm open to being wrong but I believe the data shows, old people in the UK are living in houses that are too large and receiving pensions that rise with inflation whilst "young people" are paying huge rents, can't afford to buy and are stuck with huge student debt. Why shouldn't the old couple move to let 10x apartments be built? Or does the data show differently?
  - lukan 2y ago
    "Why shouldn't the old couple move to let 10x apartments be built?" Imagine you worked all your life and now you just want to enjoy your peace in your home for your last years. You really would not want to move and I am very against driving old people out of their homes, even though I am one of those young people with a small apartment also seeing empty and unused space everywhere.
    - passwordle 2y ago
      I think not what parent comment said?
      - lukan 2y ago
        What do you think parent said?
- Manuel_D 2y ago
  If the property tax goes up by 10x, then that 80 year old couple has seen a 10x return on their real estate investment. They can easily take out a reverse mortgage to pay the property tax for the rest of their lives.
  - lukan 2y ago
    "They can easily take out a reverse mortgage to pay the property tax for the rest of their lives." Not everyone can do that easily. I would not know how that works and where are the downsides. I can learn it, sure, but for an 80 year old this would be real stress, having to figure unknown contracts out - and not getting cheated. Old people are a prime target for frauds for a reason.
    - Manuel_D 2y ago
      The reality is that the same thing, in effect, happens if you stop paying property taxes. The tax builds up and then when the house is sold after passing the government collects the tax before the descendants receive the sale proceeds. This is why complaining about rising property taxes is almost never about the elderly people who actually live in the house. It's about their children that want to inherit the house without paying off their parents' property taxes.
      - kgwgk 2y ago
        > The reality is that … People in different countries experience different realities.
        Manuel_D 2y ago
        Not really. By definition if your property value rises by 10x you have enough money to pay the property taxes by leveraging your home. Sure, it means you'll have to sell when you die and won't be able to pass on the house to your heirs. But the meme, "elderly homeowner becomes homeless because his home became super value" is just a fiction. It's not that the homeowner can't pay the property taxes - he's got plenty of value in his home. It's really the children that want to inherit a valuable home but don't want to cover the tax back payment.
lukan 2y ago
"Even if the building is not in good shape, the land is still valuable." That was my point, not binding the value just to the building itself.

p_l 2y ago

Many property tax systems are based around value of the building, not the land. I think Japan is one of the outliers where pretty much all property value is locked with the land itself, as buildings depreciate not appreciate.

ncruces 2y ago

Right, and then the 80yo people living in a centenary house in a gentrified neighborhood suddenly get a 10x tax increase because the next door building got sold to be remodeled as a luxury condo, and drove property values through the roof. That's good, because if they can't pay, their house is up for remodelling too. /sarcasm

Planktonne 2y ago
If the 80yo people are living in the house, then it isn't vacant.
- ncruces 2y ago
  That's not how property taxes work here. Also, you need to figure out how you define vacant, and how to track it. If I relocated for work, and use the house 3 months a year and every other month for a weekend, is it vacant? How do you tell?
  - harimau777 2y ago
    It seems to me that we could start with a conservative approach and adjust from there. For example, define a property as vacant if it isn't occupied for 1 continuous month or a total of three months out of the year.
  - emberfiend 2y ago
    Yes, we are discussing a hypothetical, from a few parents up: "set a property tax that would hurt if the buildings became vacant" The definition of vacant is something that would have to be figured out, but it's not impossible. For example, you could do a generous 6-12 months of the year occupation without taxation, and then a sliding scale from there. (So you pay 0% of the new tax at 12 months yearly occupation, 0% at 6 months, 50% at 3 months, and 100% at 0 months.)
RyanHamilton 2y ago
I'm open to being wrong but I believe the data shows, old people in the UK are living in houses that are too large and receiving pensions that rise with inflation whilst "young people" are paying huge rents, can't afford to buy and are stuck with huge student debt. Why shouldn't the old couple move to let 10x apartments be built? Or does the data show differently?
- lukan 2y ago
  "Why shouldn't the old couple move to let 10x apartments be built?" Imagine you worked all your life and now you just want to enjoy your peace in your home for your last years. You really would not want to move and I am very against driving old people out of their homes, even though I am one of those young people with a small apartment also seeing empty and unused space everywhere.
  - passwordle 2y ago
    I think not what parent comment said?
    - lukan 2y ago
      What do you think parent said?
Manuel_D 2y ago
If the property tax goes up by 10x, then that 80 year old couple has seen a 10x return on their real estate investment. They can easily take out a reverse mortgage to pay the property tax for the rest of their lives.
- lukan 2y ago
  "They can easily take out a reverse mortgage to pay the property tax for the rest of their lives." Not everyone can do that easily. I would not know how that works and where are the downsides. I can learn it, sure, but for an 80 year old this would be real stress, having to figure unknown contracts out - and not getting cheated. Old people are a prime target for frauds for a reason.
  - Manuel_D 2y ago
    The reality is that the same thing, in effect, happens if you stop paying property taxes. The tax builds up and then when the house is sold after passing the government collects the tax before the descendants receive the sale proceeds. This is why complaining about rising property taxes is almost never about the elderly people who actually live in the house. It's about their children that want to inherit the house without paying off their parents' property taxes.
    - kgwgk 2y ago
      > The reality is that … People in different countries experience different realities.
      - Manuel_D 2y ago
        Not really. By definition if your property value rises by 10x you have enough money to pay the property taxes by leveraging your home. Sure, it means you'll have to sell when you die and won't be able to pass on the house to your heirs. But the meme, "elderly homeowner becomes homeless because his home became super value" is just a fiction. It's not that the homeowner can't pay the property taxes - he's got plenty of value in his home. It's really the children that want to inherit a valuable home but don't want to cover the tax back payment.

lukan 2y ago

"Even if the building is not in good shape, the land is still valuable." That was my point, not binding the value just to the building itself.