8 ms·

"The rise of okupation"... but they make no references to data. Here is the data (in Spanish) [1]. The difference between trespassing (that somebody enters in

"The rise of okupation"... but they make no references to data. Here is the data (in Spanish) [1]. The difference between trespassing (that somebody enters in the house you live) and usurpation (the house is yours but is not where you live) is very important. Both problems are way less prevalent than what appears on the media (see [1]), but trespassing is waaay lower (and as the owner you have better mechanisms to recover your house). However, there is a huge propaganda campaign here in Spain, where TV shows talk constantly about trespassing, and one can only imagine what they get from that (swaying votes to conservative political groups, selling alarms, less rights to people that live on rented apartments...) [1] https://maldita.es/malditateexplica/20221026/datos-okupaciones-espana-denuncias-condenas/ https://maldita.es/malditateexplica/20221026/datos-okupacion...

franciscop 2y ago
Not everyone who gets this problem sues the okupas, since as it says this is a many-year complex legal process. I personally know multiple people who have had this problem, which suggest that it is probably MORE widespread than the data shows. In the end there are two other big ways of dealing with it: paying the okupas to leave, or paying desokupados to get them out, where both of those ways would not be registered in those statistics.
- dr__mario 2y ago
  But again, you talk about usurpation or trespassing? And even in that case, the data is the data: the rest is speculation.
  - Zanni 2y ago
    The data you have is the data you have but not necessarily the ground truth. See, for example, San Francisco shoplifting statistics.
    - dr__mario 2y ago
      I agree that it may not be 100% accurate, but probably correlated with the truth and directionally accurate. If you discard it, what do you have? Anecdotes? The media narratives?
      - pineaux 2y ago
        If data is not representative it's just a metric. Its worse than anecdotes because an anecdote has a lot of information and nuance that can be obtained from it.
        LinXitoW 2y ago
        But you'd need other data to prove (or at least strongly suggest) that the data isn't representative. You can't just say "the data COULD be unrepresentative", then just use some random guys anecdotes on the internet as more valid than national statistics.
  - franciscop 2y ago
    The cases I know of are usurpation, not trespassing. Oh sure, I'm not saying the number of lawsuits are wrong, I'm saying something different: • The lawsuits, by their nature, represent a lower bound of the number of okupations, since one would assume that there's many cases where there's an okupa but the owner doesn't go the legal way. One can hardly assume the opposite since that's a lost lawsuit for sure. So the number of lawsuits is the lower bound for the number of okupas, and NOT a representation. I do not know nor claim to know where the upper bound or actual number of okupas is, but equating lawsuits with occurences is a weak correlation at best. • There's clearly a big one-sided abuse of the system, which affects both homeowners AND honest renters. • I'd also agree to add punitive measures to banks or companies that hoard a large number of houses for especulation. This is slightly difficult to arrange legally without also punishing someone who buys a second house, but I'm sure possible and I believe both sides of the aisle would benefit from some regulation like this.
peter335 2y ago
If you make it financially risky to own a rental property you're also making it more risky and thus less profitable to buy and rent out apartments. This hurts both renters and the potential landlords. It would be much better to just increase property taxes.. Speaking as a Dane, this kind kind of economically illiterate leftist lawlessness is an important reason why Spain is poorer both poorer and has a worse welfare state than Denmark.
- dr__mario 2y ago
  Ok, but first: is it financially risky right now to own properties? No, based on the data we have. Second: can renters be hurt even more? Are landlords the most vulnerable people right now? The situation is pretty awful right now, while at the same time there are people whose sole contribution to society is "owning flats". And I agree on increasing property taxes (any progressive taxes over capital would do).
  - dr__mario 2y ago
    BTW, I'd love to recommend a book that explains all this much better than I would do. Unfortunately, I think it's only in Spanish: "La España de las piscinas" (The Spain of Swimming Pools).
    - peter335 2y ago
      Thanks for the recommendation!
  - peter335 2y ago
    I think these are understandable and well intended questions! But they also makes it seem like you're not very familiar with standard economic analysis. I would encourage you to read The Rent is Too Damn High by Yglesias which is by an american (leftist) who I think has a much better set of ideas for improving the lives of renters than "occupation friendly" housing regulations and other "zero sum" ideas. And yes, buying and administering rental properties is societally valueable just like running a bakery, restaurant or software consultancy is. https://www.amazon.com/Rent-Too-Damn-High-Matters-ebook/dp/B0078XGJXO https://www.amazon.com/Rent-Too-Damn-High-Matters-ebook/dp/B...
no_exit 2y ago
> However, there is a huge propaganda campaign here in Spain, where TV shows talk constantly about trespassing, and one can only imagine what they get from that (swaying votes to conservative political groups, selling alarms, less rights to people that live on rented apartments...) Same in the US, it's all fascist discourse shaping in preparation for things getting much worse.
zrn900 2y ago
> However, there is a huge propaganda campaign here in Spain, where TV shows talk constantly about trespassing Yes, the right-wing channels have been screaming about it for 1-2 years now. Interestingly, their tirade started about the time the US investment funds started entering the Spanish 'real estate market' and buying up entire neighborhoods. https://www.iberian.property/news/residential/blackrock-busca-entrar-en-el-mercado-residencial-en-espana/#:~:text=Despite%20not%20having%20a%20large,percentage%20point%20to%20over%205%25 https://www.iberian.property/news/residential/blackrock-busc....
ASalazarMX 2y ago
> usurpation (the house is yours but is not where you live) I wonder if you can register that house as the address of a non-profit corporation, and since the corporation always lives there, the okupas become trespassers.

franciscop 2y ago

Not everyone who gets this problem sues the okupas, since as it says this is a many-year complex legal process. I personally know multiple people who have had this problem, which suggest that it is probably MORE widespread than the data shows. In the end there are two other big ways of dealing with it: paying the okupas to leave, or paying desokupados to get them out, where both of those ways would not be registered in those statistics.

dr__mario 2y ago
But again, you talk about usurpation or trespassing? And even in that case, the data is the data: the rest is speculation.
- Zanni 2y ago
  The data you have is the data you have but not necessarily the ground truth. See, for example, San Francisco shoplifting statistics.
  - dr__mario 2y ago
    I agree that it may not be 100% accurate, but probably correlated with the truth and directionally accurate. If you discard it, what do you have? Anecdotes? The media narratives?
    - pineaux 2y ago
      If data is not representative it's just a metric. Its worse than anecdotes because an anecdote has a lot of information and nuance that can be obtained from it.
      - LinXitoW 2y ago
        But you'd need other data to prove (or at least strongly suggest) that the data isn't representative. You can't just say "the data COULD be unrepresentative", then just use some random guys anecdotes on the internet as more valid than national statistics.
- franciscop 2y ago
  The cases I know of are usurpation, not trespassing. Oh sure, I'm not saying the number of lawsuits are wrong, I'm saying something different: • The lawsuits, by their nature, represent a lower bound of the number of okupations, since one would assume that there's many cases where there's an okupa but the owner doesn't go the legal way. One can hardly assume the opposite since that's a lost lawsuit for sure. So the number of lawsuits is the lower bound for the number of okupas, and NOT a representation. I do not know nor claim to know where the upper bound or actual number of okupas is, but equating lawsuits with occurences is a weak correlation at best. • There's clearly a big one-sided abuse of the system, which affects both homeowners AND honest renters. • I'd also agree to add punitive measures to banks or companies that hoard a large number of houses for especulation. This is slightly difficult to arrange legally without also punishing someone who buys a second house, but I'm sure possible and I believe both sides of the aisle would benefit from some regulation like this.

peter335 2y ago

If you make it financially risky to own a rental property you're also making it more risky and thus less profitable to buy and rent out apartments. This hurts both renters and the potential landlords. It would be much better to just increase property taxes.. Speaking as a Dane, this kind kind of economically illiterate leftist lawlessness is an important reason why Spain is poorer both poorer and has a worse welfare state than Denmark.

dr__mario 2y ago
Ok, but first: is it financially risky right now to own properties? No, based on the data we have. Second: can renters be hurt even more? Are landlords the most vulnerable people right now? The situation is pretty awful right now, while at the same time there are people whose sole contribution to society is "owning flats". And I agree on increasing property taxes (any progressive taxes over capital would do).
- dr__mario 2y ago
  BTW, I'd love to recommend a book that explains all this much better than I would do. Unfortunately, I think it's only in Spanish: "La España de las piscinas" (The Spain of Swimming Pools).
  - peter335 2y ago
    Thanks for the recommendation!
- peter335 2y ago
  I think these are understandable and well intended questions! But they also makes it seem like you're not very familiar with standard economic analysis. I would encourage you to read The Rent is Too Damn High by Yglesias which is by an american (leftist) who I think has a much better set of ideas for improving the lives of renters than "occupation friendly" housing regulations and other "zero sum" ideas. And yes, buying and administering rental properties is societally valueable just like running a bakery, restaurant or software consultancy is. https://www.amazon.com/Rent-Too-Damn-High-Matters-ebook/dp/B0078XGJXO https://www.amazon.com/Rent-Too-Damn-High-Matters-ebook/dp/B...

no_exit 2y ago

> However, there is a huge propaganda campaign here in Spain, where TV shows talk constantly about trespassing, and one can only imagine what they get from that (swaying votes to conservative political groups, selling alarms, less rights to people that live on rented apartments...) Same in the US, it's all fascist discourse shaping in preparation for things getting much worse.

zrn900 2y ago

> However, there is a huge propaganda campaign here in Spain, where TV shows talk constantly about trespassing Yes, the right-wing channels have been screaming about it for 1-2 years now. Interestingly, their tirade started about the time the US investment funds started entering the Spanish 'real estate market' and buying up entire neighborhoods. https://www.iberian.property/news/residential/blackrock-busca-entrar-en-el-mercado-residencial-en-espana/#:~:text=Despite%20not%20having%20a%20large,percentage%20point%20to%20over%205%25 https://www.iberian.property/news/residential/blackrock-busc....

ASalazarMX 2y ago

> usurpation (the house is yours but is not where you live) I wonder if you can register that house as the address of a non-profit corporation, and since the corporation always lives there, the okupas become trespassers.