3 ms·

the only way to solve cheating is handcam anti-cheat. improve game replay systems then add to them a webcam angle over left shoulder showing both hands, mousep

the only way to solve cheating is handcam anti-cheat. improve game replay systems then add to them a webcam angle over left shoulder showing both hands, mousepad, and screen. cheating is about inputs and outputs. screen -> eyes -> hands. in the absence of more evidence about this data flow, cheating is undefined.

etrautmann 2y ago
While technically trueish, this feels unhelpful as a suggestion.
- nathants 2y ago
  tbh i’m shocked no game is doing this already.
  - bluefirebrand 2y ago
    Any game that made this sort of anti cheat mandatory to play online would have the smallest playerbase of any online game Most people will put up with kernal level anticheat because they don't know what that means Most people won't put up with having to provide additional hardware (webcams) to prove they aren't cheating
    - nathants 2y ago
      challenge accepted!
  - pynappo 2y ago
    I've seen it done with human observations instead of AI, e.g. for validating the skills of the best rhythm game players or the best speedrunners. My perception (purely from personal gaming experience, to be fair) is that most esports games' existing anti-cheat solutions are good enough at suppressing obvious cheaters, so there's not enough benefit to adopting a system like this for the vast majority of players for the cost. My understanding of TF2's problem is partially that it's easy to cheat, but unlike other games, it's also easy to cheat on multiple accounts simultaneously on the same machine, and there's not enough (if any?) enforcement to deter people from doing this.
jameslars 2y ago
Assuming you mean "undefined" as "unprovable", this still seems like an extreme stance to me. I also think, even if we had this the next goal-post would be "provenance of the video".
- nathants 2y ago
  provenance of the video is next! video and gameplay needs to leave the player’s computer simultaneously, and that player needs to provide reasonable video for all gameplay. requiring lower mouse sensitivity and greater mouse room would improve the data quality. with luck, it will always be cheaper to detect gen-ai video then to create it. otherwise, more evidence? higher res/fps webcams? the cheaters have run the field long enough. time for the arms race to push back!
  - jameslars 2y ago
    As a cost-to-entry for a casual player, this seems like a pretty hard sell. I'd rather just find something else to play personally, than deal with a webcam and some invasive recording situation to play.
    - nathants 2y ago
      i think the reality is that this type of player will encounter cheaters, or avoid games where cheating is possible. any kind of anti-cheat is by definition surveillance. the irony is that currently none of them work. all cost, no benefit. if these webcams were at an arcade on every machine, would it be weird?
      - jameslars 2y ago
        It would be less weird because I'm in public with a different expectation to privacy, but your point about surveillance in general is noted.
        nathants 2y ago
medos 2y ago
would that solve it though? couldn't the webcam stream be falsified?
- ed_mercer 2y ago
  Sounds really hard to falsify as the video would have to match the ingame actions.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
- nathants 2y ago
  maybe, but it would be hard and expensive. especially undetectably and at high frame rates. cheating will never be impossible, but it can be more expensive and asymmetric.
- solatic 2y ago
  What makes an aimbot an aimbot is its inhuman speed, the camera snaps from one target to the next, perfectly. Hypothetically you could GenAI a video to show hand motions, but real hand motions can't actually "snap" like that. You would see in the video that the hand controlling the mouse is snapping from one frame to the next, which would be a dead giveaway.
  - nathants 2y ago
    exactly! cheating should be obvious and unambiguous with sufficient evidence of game inputs/outputs.
  - admax88qqq 2y ago
    If the aimbot is actually doing inhuman inputs you don’t need video to prove it
    - nathants 2y ago
      softaim is much more ambiguous without handcam.
alexvitkov 2y ago
You would need really high quality video to catch an aim-assist sending a 2px mouse input to turn a near-miss into a hit.
- nathants 2y ago
  force lower mouse sensitivity and large mouse room. this also lowers maximum response speed as you have to move more of your arm than just wrist.
  - alexvitkov 2y ago
    That's where I draw the line. You can put cameras in my home, but you're not making me play on low sensitivity.
    - nathants 2y ago
      just wait. there’s more…
- mikedelago 2y ago
  You probably don't play TF2. It's not just "human behind the kb/m using an aim assist cheat". It's literally bots/non-human players that stare at the sky and beeline to either the objective or a predefined path. They usually spam music over in-game chat and there is simply zero plausible deniability that this player in the game is a bot. They usually come into a game, and then invite other instances of the bot to the same game, to prevent them from getting kicked (which requires 6 "yes" responses from the same team) and to kick other players from the game. These are the vast majority of bots/cheaters that you see in the game, and they are the primary reason that "casual" matchmaking is sometimes unplayable. "real" players that are cheating in the game with some kind of aim assist, but it's still a human behind the wheel, are relatively easy to detect and spectate if you're on their team. They typically get noticed and kicked
Too 2y ago
This would only work in serious tournaments. In casual games this would just get dickpics or players pointing the camera into the table with not enough other players to care about it.
- nathants 2y ago
  t2p is a very important metric. this would likely only work with a stronger reputation and ban system. i wonder if handcam would make it harder to evade a ban?
draebek 2y ago
Better also put a second camera facing the eyes to make sure the player isn't looking at e.g. a radar monitor just past the game monitor, or something in their lap. Apparently some cheating streamers will put a camera behind them precisely to show their keyboard/mouse/monitor, but then they'll put a phone or small tablet in their lap or off to the side that has radar/wallhack kind of stuff running on it.
- nathants 2y ago
  over left shoulder handcam can show head orientation. not sure it's a good idea to require that, or crop it out. head orientation is definitely a part of inputs. maybe popularize baseball hat with sheet of paper taped on the side? elite gamer apparel. privacy is the meta, after all. then just include full radar as a part of the game! stealth is overrated in pvp.

etrautmann 2y ago

While technically trueish, this feels unhelpful as a suggestion.

nathants 2y ago
tbh i’m shocked no game is doing this already.
- bluefirebrand 2y ago
  Any game that made this sort of anti cheat mandatory to play online would have the smallest playerbase of any online game Most people will put up with kernal level anticheat because they don't know what that means Most people won't put up with having to provide additional hardware (webcams) to prove they aren't cheating
  - nathants 2y ago
    challenge accepted!
- pynappo 2y ago
  I've seen it done with human observations instead of AI, e.g. for validating the skills of the best rhythm game players or the best speedrunners. My perception (purely from personal gaming experience, to be fair) is that most esports games' existing anti-cheat solutions are good enough at suppressing obvious cheaters, so there's not enough benefit to adopting a system like this for the vast majority of players for the cost. My understanding of TF2's problem is partially that it's easy to cheat, but unlike other games, it's also easy to cheat on multiple accounts simultaneously on the same machine, and there's not enough (if any?) enforcement to deter people from doing this.

jameslars 2y ago

Assuming you mean "undefined" as "unprovable", this still seems like an extreme stance to me. I also think, even if we had this the next goal-post would be "provenance of the video".

nathants 2y ago
provenance of the video is next! video and gameplay needs to leave the player’s computer simultaneously, and that player needs to provide reasonable video for all gameplay. requiring lower mouse sensitivity and greater mouse room would improve the data quality. with luck, it will always be cheaper to detect gen-ai video then to create it. otherwise, more evidence? higher res/fps webcams? the cheaters have run the field long enough. time for the arms race to push back!
- jameslars 2y ago
  As a cost-to-entry for a casual player, this seems like a pretty hard sell. I'd rather just find something else to play personally, than deal with a webcam and some invasive recording situation to play.
  - nathants 2y ago
    i think the reality is that this type of player will encounter cheaters, or avoid games where cheating is possible. any kind of anti-cheat is by definition surveillance. the irony is that currently none of them work. all cost, no benefit. if these webcams were at an arcade on every machine, would it be weird?
    - jameslars 2y ago
      It would be less weird because I'm in public with a different expectation to privacy, but your point about surveillance in general is noted.
      - nathants 2y ago

medos 2y ago

would that solve it though? couldn't the webcam stream be falsified?

ed_mercer 2y ago
Sounds really hard to falsify as the video would have to match the ingame actions.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
nathants 2y ago
maybe, but it would be hard and expensive. especially undetectably and at high frame rates. cheating will never be impossible, but it can be more expensive and asymmetric.
solatic 2y ago
What makes an aimbot an aimbot is its inhuman speed, the camera snaps from one target to the next, perfectly. Hypothetically you could GenAI a video to show hand motions, but real hand motions can't actually "snap" like that. You would see in the video that the hand controlling the mouse is snapping from one frame to the next, which would be a dead giveaway.
- nathants 2y ago
  exactly! cheating should be obvious and unambiguous with sufficient evidence of game inputs/outputs.
- admax88qqq 2y ago
  If the aimbot is actually doing inhuman inputs you don’t need video to prove it
  - nathants 2y ago
    softaim is much more ambiguous without handcam.

alexvitkov 2y ago

You would need really high quality video to catch an aim-assist sending a 2px mouse input to turn a near-miss into a hit.

nathants 2y ago
force lower mouse sensitivity and large mouse room. this also lowers maximum response speed as you have to move more of your arm than just wrist.
- alexvitkov 2y ago
  That's where I draw the line. You can put cameras in my home, but you're not making me play on low sensitivity.
  - nathants 2y ago
    just wait. there’s more…
mikedelago 2y ago
You probably don't play TF2. It's not just "human behind the kb/m using an aim assist cheat". It's literally bots/non-human players that stare at the sky and beeline to either the objective or a predefined path. They usually spam music over in-game chat and there is simply zero plausible deniability that this player in the game is a bot. They usually come into a game, and then invite other instances of the bot to the same game, to prevent them from getting kicked (which requires 6 "yes" responses from the same team) and to kick other players from the game. These are the vast majority of bots/cheaters that you see in the game, and they are the primary reason that "casual" matchmaking is sometimes unplayable. "real" players that are cheating in the game with some kind of aim assist, but it's still a human behind the wheel, are relatively easy to detect and spectate if you're on their team. They typically get noticed and kicked

Too 2y ago

This would only work in serious tournaments. In casual games this would just get dickpics or players pointing the camera into the table with not enough other players to care about it.

nathants 2y ago
t2p is a very important metric. this would likely only work with a stronger reputation and ban system. i wonder if handcam would make it harder to evade a ban?

draebek 2y ago

Better also put a second camera facing the eyes to make sure the player isn't looking at e.g. a radar monitor just past the game monitor, or something in their lap. Apparently some cheating streamers will put a camera behind them precisely to show their keyboard/mouse/monitor, but then they'll put a phone or small tablet in their lap or off to the side that has radar/wallhack kind of stuff running on it.

nathants 2y ago
over left shoulder handcam can show head orientation. not sure it's a good idea to require that, or crop it out. head orientation is definitely a part of inputs. maybe popularize baseball hat with sheet of paper taped on the side? elite gamer apparel. privacy is the meta, after all. then just include full radar as a part of the game! stealth is overrated in pvp.