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> Not like - python/pip rust/cargo dotnet/nuget javascript/npm java/maven - because with each such different language specific build layer you lose how to expre

> Not like - python/pip rust/cargo dotnet/nuget javascript/npm java/maven - because with each such different language specific build layer you lose how to express depedencies between them. Its funny you highlight this as a feature, because my #1 piece of feedback for the bazel ecosystem is that it really sucks to have to give up language-native tools. Whether it's LSP servers, documentation that says "add this to your gradle file", "add this to your build.sbt", it's always an uphill battle. And then it's an uphill battle convincing product engineers to forget everything they know, do it the bazel way instead. I get why bazel is cool, but I think it's worth highlighting that for a lot of folks it very well can make their inner development loop worse than without it, particularly if they don't have someone (or several people) dedicated solely to developer experience.

malkia 2y ago
Can you explain further? Yes, it takes more effort to express, or rather to create .bzl files to express these dependencies (e.g. let's say we have Python using C/C++) - but once it's done it gives a higher level (BUILD) language where this is easy to express... Now there are still many rough corners (especially when comes to dealing with non-mono repo deps), but I'd rather use this, than hodge-podge of shell scripts/makefiles/cmake/etc, where the steps are not even clear what to run first, and the confiendence if this going to be reproducible.
- hamandcheese 2y ago
  I am not really talking about cross-language dependencies. I mean simple things like Java product engineers who know gradle and want to use gradle and get grumpy when they don't know how to add dependencies to WORKSPACE. These people need to be trained to use different tools rather than use the skills they already know. That's fine, but it's definitely a cost to using bazel. Or if you are trying to maintain bazel for an org. Invariably, you will receive requests of the form "I would like to achieve [well document thing in language-specific build tool], please help me do that in Bazel". The net result for me, who was once in that role, is that understanding the original build system, then bending bazel to match a certain behavior (usually with no or inadequate docs) is a huge amount of effort. Enough that I now am skeptical of the value-add of bazel.
  - kaba0 2y ago
    For what it’s worth, gradle is probably the only other build tool that has good inter-language capabilities (and it is heavily used by the android toolchain). Most other build tools are specialists.

malkia 2y ago

Can you explain further? Yes, it takes more effort to express, or rather to create .bzl files to express these dependencies (e.g. let's say we have Python using C/C++) - but once it's done it gives a higher level (BUILD) language where this is easy to express... Now there are still many rough corners (especially when comes to dealing with non-mono repo deps), but I'd rather use this, than hodge-podge of shell scripts/makefiles/cmake/etc, where the steps are not even clear what to run first, and the confiendence if this going to be reproducible.

hamandcheese 2y ago
I am not really talking about cross-language dependencies. I mean simple things like Java product engineers who know gradle and want to use gradle and get grumpy when they don't know how to add dependencies to WORKSPACE. These people need to be trained to use different tools rather than use the skills they already know. That's fine, but it's definitely a cost to using bazel. Or if you are trying to maintain bazel for an org. Invariably, you will receive requests of the form "I would like to achieve [well document thing in language-specific build tool], please help me do that in Bazel". The net result for me, who was once in that role, is that understanding the original build system, then bending bazel to match a certain behavior (usually with no or inadequate docs) is a huge amount of effort. Enough that I now am skeptical of the value-add of bazel.
- kaba0 2y ago
  For what it’s worth, gradle is probably the only other build tool that has good inter-language capabilities (and it is heavily used by the android toolchain). Most other build tools are specialists.