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Iraq and Lebanon both more closely "vaguely resemble" representative government than Israel does. For all their problems, at least all the people they rule over

Iraq and Lebanon both more closely "vaguely resemble" representative government than Israel does. For all their problems, at least all the people they rule over are allowed to be citizens and vote.

amitport 2y ago
500k Palestinians in Lebanon, 2nd-3rd generation "refugees", are not allowed to be citizens and do not have a vote. (Palestinians are the only people in the world who the UN allow to inherit this status) And now... Iraq?! you must be joking or cynic
- School-Cotton 2y ago
  That is a fair point. The way Lebanon treats Palestinians is terrible and they should not get a free pass when people criticize Israel.
  - nsguy 2y ago
    They're also expelling Syrian refugees right now which is not getting a lot of coverage: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-69059929 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-69059929
  - amitport 2y ago
    The free pass is given by the UN. Imagine if in the last century, the billions of refugees and descendants of refugees of the world, would all still be kept as ethernal refugees. The nations of the world are a condescending bunch. Implying that the Palestinians are not to be treated as equals to Germans, Ukrainians, etc.,
nsguy 2y ago
Iraq and Lebanon are far from free and democratic countries. https://freedomhouse.org/country/iraq/freedom-world/2024 https://freedomhouse.org/country/iraq/freedom-world/2024 https://freedomhouse.org/country/lebanon/freedom-world/2024 https://freedomhouse.org/country/lebanon/freedom-world/2024 https://freedomhouse.org/country/israel/freedom-world/2024 https://freedomhouse.org/country/israel/freedom-world/2024
- School-Cotton 2y ago
  That does not contradict my point.
  - nsguy 2y ago
    Freedom house, which I think is a credible source here, says Israel is free and democratic, and Lebanon and Iraq are not. How does that not contradict your point? The claim was that Israel is the only free and democratic country in the middle east, do you have any credible source that disproves that?
    - School-Cotton 2y ago
      Israel administers the West Bank as a bantustan for the majority of their (technically non-citizen) Arab population, but does not officially count it as part of their territory, so they don’t have to grant the people there citizenship or allow them voting rights. But it’s worth repeating: Israel entirely controls this territory. That is clearly undemocratic.
      - nsguy 2y ago
        What is worth repeating this is no different than any other occupied territory in the world or in history. When the US occupied Germany it didn't allow Germans voting rights. When it occupied Japan it didn't give Japanese voting rights. When it occupied Afghanistan or Iraq it didn't give those voting rights either. Puerto Ricans are administered by the US but don't have voting rights. There is nothing undemocratic about this at all. This is what international law mandates. Israel is prohibited from annexing this territory by said international law. When Israel annexed other occupied territory and gave residents rights (The Golan Heights) the international community refused to accept that. You can ask why these territories are in this status for this length of time. Part of the reason is that the country it was occupied from, Jordan, does not want it back. Another part is that the Palestinians that live there don't really want this resolved either (at least some really large portion of them). Another part are other external interests that don't want to see this resolved.

Iraq and Lebanon both more closely "vaguely resemble" representative government than Israel does. For all their problems, at least all the people they rule over are allowed to be citizens and vote.

amitport 2y ago

500k Palestinians in Lebanon, 2nd-3rd generation "refugees", are not allowed to be citizens and do not have a vote. (Palestinians are the only people in the world who the UN allow to inherit this status) And now... Iraq?! you must be joking or cynic

School-Cotton 2y ago
That is a fair point. The way Lebanon treats Palestinians is terrible and they should not get a free pass when people criticize Israel.
- nsguy 2y ago
  They're also expelling Syrian refugees right now which is not getting a lot of coverage: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-69059929 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-69059929
- amitport 2y ago
  The free pass is given by the UN. Imagine if in the last century, the billions of refugees and descendants of refugees of the world, would all still be kept as ethernal refugees. The nations of the world are a condescending bunch. Implying that the Palestinians are not to be treated as equals to Germans, Ukrainians, etc.,

nsguy 2y ago

Iraq and Lebanon are far from free and democratic countries. https://freedomhouse.org/country/iraq/freedom-world/2024 https://freedomhouse.org/country/iraq/freedom-world/2024 https://freedomhouse.org/country/lebanon/freedom-world/2024 https://freedomhouse.org/country/lebanon/freedom-world/2024 https://freedomhouse.org/country/israel/freedom-world/2024 https://freedomhouse.org/country/israel/freedom-world/2024

School-Cotton 2y ago
That does not contradict my point.
- nsguy 2y ago
  Freedom house, which I think is a credible source here, says Israel is free and democratic, and Lebanon and Iraq are not. How does that not contradict your point? The claim was that Israel is the only free and democratic country in the middle east, do you have any credible source that disproves that?
  - School-Cotton 2y ago
    Israel administers the West Bank as a bantustan for the majority of their (technically non-citizen) Arab population, but does not officially count it as part of their territory, so they don’t have to grant the people there citizenship or allow them voting rights. But it’s worth repeating: Israel entirely controls this territory. That is clearly undemocratic.
    - nsguy 2y ago
      What is worth repeating this is no different than any other occupied territory in the world or in history. When the US occupied Germany it didn't allow Germans voting rights. When it occupied Japan it didn't give Japanese voting rights. When it occupied Afghanistan or Iraq it didn't give those voting rights either. Puerto Ricans are administered by the US but don't have voting rights. There is nothing undemocratic about this at all. This is what international law mandates. Israel is prohibited from annexing this territory by said international law. When Israel annexed other occupied territory and gave residents rights (The Golan Heights) the international community refused to accept that. You can ask why these territories are in this status for this length of time. Part of the reason is that the country it was occupied from, Jordan, does not want it back. Another part is that the Palestinians that live there don't really want this resolved either (at least some really large portion of them). Another part are other external interests that don't want to see this resolved.