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Israel is not a democracy, a huge percentage of the populate cannot vote and have no civil rights or any sort. Let’s please stop repeating this falsehood. It’s

Israel is not a democracy, a huge percentage of the populate cannot vote and have no civil rights or any sort. Let’s please stop repeating this falsehood. It’s propaganda and the facts are clear.

bitcurious 2y ago
Can you speak more to your perspective? The only way I can understand your take is to say that the West Bank is rightfully Israeli and therefore its residents should be citizens with voting rights. Are you opposed to an independent Palestinian state?
- Matl 2y ago
  Not OP, but I am for either giving the Palestinians the same rights as Israelis in a 1 state solution or a an independent Palestinian state but since Israel doesn't seem interested in that it's a cheap talking point because Israel will just crush the Palestinians under its boot until economic sanctions are applied similar to how it was done re South Africa.
  - legolas2412 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - Matl 2y ago
      Oh please, this BS no longer works. "Yitzhak Rabin presented the Oslo II Interim Agreement to the Knesset on October 5, 1995, in his final speech to the legislative body. As he spoke, he boldly laid out what he believed to be the future of the Jewish state, boasting that “The borders of the State of Israel, during the permanent solution, will be beyond the lines which existed before the Six-Day War.” He also described his vision of a Palestinian “entity” he described as “less than a state.” You can't expect people under brutal military occupation to suddenly start loving their occupiers while under that occupation. You have to end that occupation, period. That means ALL illegal Israeli settlers in the West Bank need to move off the settlements too btw. If after an independent Palestinian state is established on the pre-1967 borders with East Jerusalem as its capital, all of West Bank and all of Gaza and then Israel faces violence from that state, then you'll have support of many you don't right now. You can't occupy people forever, or because one of their leaders rejected a deal once etc.
      - legolas2412 2y ago
        But Israel was not the one that rejected two state solutions offered by UN in 1948, USA in 2000, and by Israel in 1990s, 2008 etc. It was Arab countries, and Palestinian leaders. Why was Palestine not a state before 1967 with Gaza and West bank as territory? How many times have Palestinians offered to recognize and make permanent peace with Israel? Responding to your edit >> If after an independent Palestinian state is established on the pre-1967 borders with East Jerusalem as its capital, all of West Bank and all of Gaza and then Israel faces violence from that state, then you'll have support of many you don't right now. Huh, why did they not accept it in 2000 then? Why launch the second intifada? Why ask the "right to return"? Why call for the destruction of the entirety of Israel as a "white settler colonial state"?
        Matl 2y ago
        It's questionable that the Western dominated UN of 1948 had any authority to make such a proposal and that it was fair in terms of how the territory was to be divided. > Why was Palestine not a state before 1967 with Gaza and West bank as territory? Because it was occupied by Egypt and Jordan and before then by the Brits and before then by the Ottomans.... Are you making an argument that the Palestinians were occupied since forever so why not occupy them forever? > Huh, why did they not accept it in 2000 then? The 2000 deal was a deal for 'less than a state' that's why, see my previous post.
        legolas2412 2y ago
        I will be actually inquisitive now. This is certainly new knowledge for me. What in the deal made it "less than a state"?
      - YeGoblynQueenne 2y ago
        >> You can't occupy people forever, or because one of their leaders rejected a deal once etc. Turkey, which has for all intents and purposes occupied the (ancestral lands of) the Kurdish people for many years, would like to disagree. Turkey, btw, which has occupied the ancestral lands of the Kurdish people, alongside the ancestral lands of the Ionian and Pontiac Greeks, Assyrian and Cappadokian Christians and Armenians, whom it has ethnically cleansed and genocided. Sure you can occupy people forever. Or until you massacre every last one of them who won't leave (what is now) your land.
    - lupire 2y ago
      The West Bank is occupied by in substantial fraction by Americans, not even Israelis, who choose to live in the West Bank, from where Palestinians were exiled by the IDF, under Israeli protection. How is that anything like Afghanistan nation building?
- cogman10 2y ago
  The west bank isn't independent. If a citizen there commits a crime, they are sent to an Israelite court. Their infrastructure and policing are done by Israel. Their elected officials are completely powerless, they cannot change anything. Their vote cannot affect the government that governs them. They are israeli citizens with no say in the state that controls them.
- School-Cotton 2y ago
  Countries with bantustans that they technically don't claim as part of their territory, but in practice completely control without giving the population any rights, are not normally considered democratic. See for example South Africa.
- bakuninsbart 2y ago
  The reason why South Africa and many intellectuals consider Israel to be an apartheid state is not because of the treatment of Arabs that were allowed to become Israeli citizens after the Nakba, but because of the occupation of the West-Bank. The West-Bank is not rightfully Israel land, but has been de facto under Israeli occupation for 50 years. The situation there is very comparable to SA Bantustans; the people there have no rights, have no nationality, and are brutally suppressed by the Israeli government and fascist settlers. Ghaza is basically an open air concentration camp. The status quo is apartheid. The options to change that are one multicultural state, a two-state solution or genocide.
- hehdhdjehehegwv 2y ago
  I think other commenters pretty much nailed what I was trying to convey.
edanm 2y ago
[flagged]
- stoorafa 2y ago
  > Given that designation as a separate state, complaining that they can't vote in Israeli elections is like complaining that Canadians can't vote in US elections. I don’t remember the US ever occupying Canada. Not like that at all, and this is a clearly biased take even considering this line on its own.
  - revnode 2y ago
    Do you recall the US occupying the Philippines? Did they get a vote? How about Puerto Rico today? The US is still a democratic republic.
    - Matl 2y ago
      Why is your definition of democratic the valid one? Mine is, a country is only a real democracy if ALL people it rules over have the same set of rights. Israel isn't a democracy and so isn't the DRC, despite the fact that it has democratic in its name.
      - legolas2412 2y ago
        USA is not a real democracy either in your definition.
        Matl 2y ago
        Correct.
        hehdhdjehehegwv 2y ago
        I like how these people think the checkmate move is assume the person they’re talking to is a blind supporter of the USA for some reason, and have zero response when they realize that rationally applying the same rules to everybody really does mean Israel doesn’t pass the bar for a democracy.
blackeyeblitzar 2y ago
[flagged]
- legulere 2y ago
  Israel, contrary to generally agreed upon international law, considers East Jerusalem as a part of Israel. The autochtonous Palestinians living there are eligible for Israeli citizenship which would allow them to vote. However only a tiny fraction has gotten Israeli citizenship as that would legitimise the annexation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_citizenship_law#Annexed_territories https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_citizenship_law#Annexe...
- hehdhdjehehegwv 2y ago
  This is absolutely true: there are hundreds of thousands of adults who live within Israeli territory under Israeli control, where Israeli law and order is applied, who are not allowed to vote, have no representation at all, and are regularly subject to lethal violence from Israeli citizens. That’s not a democracy.

Israel is not a democracy, a huge percentage of the populate cannot vote and have no civil rights or any sort. Let’s please stop repeating this falsehood. It’s propaganda and the facts are clear.

bitcurious 2y ago

Can you speak more to your perspective? The only way I can understand your take is to say that the West Bank is rightfully Israeli and therefore its residents should be citizens with voting rights. Are you opposed to an independent Palestinian state?

Matl 2y ago
Not OP, but I am for either giving the Palestinians the same rights as Israelis in a 1 state solution or a an independent Palestinian state but since Israel doesn't seem interested in that it's a cheap talking point because Israel will just crush the Palestinians under its boot until economic sanctions are applied similar to how it was done re South Africa.
- legolas2412 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - Matl 2y ago
    Oh please, this BS no longer works. "Yitzhak Rabin presented the Oslo II Interim Agreement to the Knesset on October 5, 1995, in his final speech to the legislative body. As he spoke, he boldly laid out what he believed to be the future of the Jewish state, boasting that “The borders of the State of Israel, during the permanent solution, will be beyond the lines which existed before the Six-Day War.” He also described his vision of a Palestinian “entity” he described as “less than a state.” You can't expect people under brutal military occupation to suddenly start loving their occupiers while under that occupation. You have to end that occupation, period. That means ALL illegal Israeli settlers in the West Bank need to move off the settlements too btw. If after an independent Palestinian state is established on the pre-1967 borders with East Jerusalem as its capital, all of West Bank and all of Gaza and then Israel faces violence from that state, then you'll have support of many you don't right now. You can't occupy people forever, or because one of their leaders rejected a deal once etc.
    - legolas2412 2y ago
      But Israel was not the one that rejected two state solutions offered by UN in 1948, USA in 2000, and by Israel in 1990s, 2008 etc. It was Arab countries, and Palestinian leaders. Why was Palestine not a state before 1967 with Gaza and West bank as territory? How many times have Palestinians offered to recognize and make permanent peace with Israel? Responding to your edit >> If after an independent Palestinian state is established on the pre-1967 borders with East Jerusalem as its capital, all of West Bank and all of Gaza and then Israel faces violence from that state, then you'll have support of many you don't right now. Huh, why did they not accept it in 2000 then? Why launch the second intifada? Why ask the "right to return"? Why call for the destruction of the entirety of Israel as a "white settler colonial state"?
      - Matl 2y ago
        It's questionable that the Western dominated UN of 1948 had any authority to make such a proposal and that it was fair in terms of how the territory was to be divided. > Why was Palestine not a state before 1967 with Gaza and West bank as territory? Because it was occupied by Egypt and Jordan and before then by the Brits and before then by the Ottomans.... Are you making an argument that the Palestinians were occupied since forever so why not occupy them forever? > Huh, why did they not accept it in 2000 then? The 2000 deal was a deal for 'less than a state' that's why, see my previous post.
        legolas2412 2y ago
        I will be actually inquisitive now. This is certainly new knowledge for me. What in the deal made it "less than a state"?
    - YeGoblynQueenne 2y ago
      >> You can't occupy people forever, or because one of their leaders rejected a deal once etc. Turkey, which has for all intents and purposes occupied the (ancestral lands of) the Kurdish people for many years, would like to disagree. Turkey, btw, which has occupied the ancestral lands of the Kurdish people, alongside the ancestral lands of the Ionian and Pontiac Greeks, Assyrian and Cappadokian Christians and Armenians, whom it has ethnically cleansed and genocided. Sure you can occupy people forever. Or until you massacre every last one of them who won't leave (what is now) your land.
  - lupire 2y ago
    The West Bank is occupied by in substantial fraction by Americans, not even Israelis, who choose to live in the West Bank, from where Palestinians were exiled by the IDF, under Israeli protection. How is that anything like Afghanistan nation building?
cogman10 2y ago
The west bank isn't independent. If a citizen there commits a crime, they are sent to an Israelite court. Their infrastructure and policing are done by Israel. Their elected officials are completely powerless, they cannot change anything. Their vote cannot affect the government that governs them. They are israeli citizens with no say in the state that controls them.
School-Cotton 2y ago
Countries with bantustans that they technically don't claim as part of their territory, but in practice completely control without giving the population any rights, are not normally considered democratic. See for example South Africa.
bakuninsbart 2y ago
The reason why South Africa and many intellectuals consider Israel to be an apartheid state is not because of the treatment of Arabs that were allowed to become Israeli citizens after the Nakba, but because of the occupation of the West-Bank. The West-Bank is not rightfully Israel land, but has been de facto under Israeli occupation for 50 years. The situation there is very comparable to SA Bantustans; the people there have no rights, have no nationality, and are brutally suppressed by the Israeli government and fascist settlers. Ghaza is basically an open air concentration camp. The status quo is apartheid. The options to change that are one multicultural state, a two-state solution or genocide.
hehdhdjehehegwv 2y ago
I think other commenters pretty much nailed what I was trying to convey.

edanm 2y ago

[flagged]

stoorafa 2y ago
> Given that designation as a separate state, complaining that they can't vote in Israeli elections is like complaining that Canadians can't vote in US elections. I don’t remember the US ever occupying Canada. Not like that at all, and this is a clearly biased take even considering this line on its own.
- revnode 2y ago
  Do you recall the US occupying the Philippines? Did they get a vote? How about Puerto Rico today? The US is still a democratic republic.
  - Matl 2y ago
    Why is your definition of democratic the valid one? Mine is, a country is only a real democracy if ALL people it rules over have the same set of rights. Israel isn't a democracy and so isn't the DRC, despite the fact that it has democratic in its name.
    - legolas2412 2y ago
      USA is not a real democracy either in your definition.
      - Matl 2y ago
        Correct.
        hehdhdjehehegwv 2y ago
        I like how these people think the checkmate move is assume the person they’re talking to is a blind supporter of the USA for some reason, and have zero response when they realize that rationally applying the same rules to everybody really does mean Israel doesn’t pass the bar for a democracy.

blackeyeblitzar 2y ago

[flagged]

legulere 2y ago
Israel, contrary to generally agreed upon international law, considers East Jerusalem as a part of Israel. The autochtonous Palestinians living there are eligible for Israeli citizenship which would allow them to vote. However only a tiny fraction has gotten Israeli citizenship as that would legitimise the annexation. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_citizenship_law#Annexed_territories https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_citizenship_law#Annexe...
hehdhdjehehegwv 2y ago
This is absolutely true: there are hundreds of thousands of adults who live within Israeli territory under Israeli control, where Israeli law and order is applied, who are not allowed to vote, have no representation at all, and are regularly subject to lethal violence from Israeli citizens. That’s not a democracy.