5 ms·

IMO one shouldn't rely on motivation to do things. You don't need to be motivated to do things. You can do things even though they suck. There'll be good day

IMO one shouldn't rely on motivation to do things. You don't need to be motivated to do things. You can do things even though they suck. There'll be good days when motivation is there to cheer you on, but that fucker is the ultimate fair weather friend, so there will also be days when it's a slog and motivation isn't even picking up your calls. It's a complete misconception of human psychology that motivation precedes action. It's the other way around. Act first, become motivated later. That day you wake up full of motivation and fly out of bed and there's eye of the tiger and you're running up and down stairs airboxing in sweatpants, that day isn't ever coming. I think the notion that one needs motivation to do things comes from the educational space, where there's a lot of talk about motivating students to do this or that, and somehow this has been internalized into a notion that this is how we also operate ourselves, that we somehow need to bribe or intice ourselves to do the things we want to be doing, which when you think about it, doesn't really make sense.

thefaux 2y ago
"Inspiration is for amateurs. The rest of us just show up and get to work. If you wait around for the clouds to part and a bolt of lightening to strike you in the brain, you are not going to make an awful lot of work. All the best ideas come out of the process; they come out of the work itself." ― Chuck Close Close is a complicated person but the quote holds up.
- CuriouslyC 2y ago
  Showing up and getting to work is a great mantra for people who already have traction. For people that aren't, that's a recipe for burnout, as you need space and time to keep pushing in the face of uncertain returns.
divan 2y ago
> It's a complete misconception of human psychology that motivation precedes action. It's not a misconception, it's the definition of motivation. The misconception is using the word "motivation" only for intrinsic motivation. If you have a gun pointed at your head, you'll be quite motivated to do whatever the person holding the gun tells you. External motivation can be extremely powerful, it just doesn't last long. > Act first, become motivated later. You're right. You need some external motivation to start "acting first". There are four types of external motivation (from more external to more internal) – fully external, introjected, identified, internal. Rewards and punishments are the first (external), rewards/punishments "in your head" (aka image of your parents telling you to do homework or you don't get TV time) are the second (introjected), part of your identity ("I'm Muslim, thus have to wear hijab") - third (identified), and "I truly believe I have to do something" is fourth (internal). Internal type of external motivation differs from intrinsic motivation (which is defined as "acting because I enjoy the process", and you can truly believe you have to do something but not enjoy it). Discipline and self-discipline are somewhere between introjected and internal types, but it's essentially a codename for external motivation nevertheless. In many cases you really want to instill intrinsic motivation in kids/athletes/employees/etc. But you need to "act first" and repetitively link it to the positive emotions – and that's where external motivation (and discipline) can be used strategically to create intrinsic one. Unfortunately a lot of people/fields/disciplines get stuck in the external reward systems and don't use it strategically.
- marginalia_nu 2y ago
  This is all fine modelling, but doesn't have much bearing on the experience of being human. It's a description, and describing something (regardless of which words you use) does not change its nature. Motivation, in the sense of "I feel a desire to perform an act I deem to align with what I want to do although it will bring me immediate-term discomfort", that type of motivation, whatever you call it, does not precede prior success in that activity; that type of motivation, whatever you call it, will go away in the face of hardships and struggles; that type of motivation, whatever you call it, is not necessary to perform the task at hand.
  - divan 2y ago
    > "I feel a desire to perform an act I deem to align with what I want to do although it will bring me immediate-term discomfort" It's an _internal type_ of "extrinsic motivation", right. > will go away in the face of hardships and struggles Yes, and this is true for all types of extrinsic motivation. > doesn't precede the success Well, that's where things get interesting. There are three main factors that influence motivation – autonomy, competence and relatedness. Autonomy - perception of your actions being connected to your own values/beliefs/desires. Competence - perception of your actions being connected to the growth or achievement. Relatedness - perception of your actions bringing closer to the people you care about. Those 4 types of extrinsic motivation go mostly on the scale of decreasing autonomy. And it's important to say that all types of motivation have slightly different natures and can work simultaneously, just one of those will dominate. So you are probably right saying that the internal type of extrinsic motivation doesn't require prior success. But, once you start doing it, the perception of success (whatever that means in a given context) will greatly contribute to shifting your dominant motivation either closer to the intrinsic motivation (i.e. you'll start enjoying) or towards amotivation (opposite extreme side). Perception of success is mostly a "competence" part. That's how the coach might choose the right level of challenge for the athlete, to keep their motivation growing (or at least not falling). And if you really want to build intrinsic motivation, you absolutely need it. And yes, not every task require intrinsic motivation. But it would be also true to say, that every task will benefit greatly if people performing it are intrinsically motivated. There are two main reasons: efficiency and... people happiness. An intrinsically motivated person will require less pressure/incentives, will keep doing the task amid hardships. Which directly translates into economic value. It also directly linked to the feeling of wellbeing and vitality (aka happiness). It might not be very important for whoever needs task to be done, but a society where autonomy is inhibited and extrinsic motivation is dominating is very different from society with high level of autonomy. It's like, people are just happier.
loa_in_ 2y ago
It's more of a failing of modern world to not cultivate this kind of motivation than a misconception.
- marginalia_nu 2y ago
  If you can't do anything without feeling stoked to do it, there's just so much stuff you're never going to be able to do. Doing things that are uncomfortable and unappealing is such an important life skill.
m3kw9 2y ago
I believe a task without motivation is pointless. If you are not motivated but is doing it anyway, it already has innate motivation, you just may not admit it is. Not motivated to pay your bills? You do it anyways because not getting services cut off is actually the motivation, or that “I always pay up“ is motivating you
nuancebydefault 2y ago
I find that sometimes there is just no motivation, there's even a big reluctance. It's very weird how or why this happens now and then. Maybe it is a natural protection mechanism kicking in, or maybe it is just a chemical imbalance of hormones involved in the reward system. 'Just do it' (tm) does not work in those cases. After a while i just google 'how to get out of a rut' and that works after some undefined amount of wasted time. Another trick to fall back onto, is changing jobs.
nottommo 2y ago
I don't really understand this line of thinking, but maybe we have different definitions of motivation. If you are not using motivation to do things what is the reason you to do things? For me anything I do is because I am motivated to do it.
- marginalia_nu 2y ago
  Isn't it possible, even common, to seek an outcome, but not feel inclined to do the thing that takes you toward that outcome? I don't think there's anyone who doesn't want a fit body, yet to borrow a phrase, "nobody wants to lift no heavy-ass weights"
epolanski 2y ago
+1. My life started working out okay when I started relying on discipline. Doing things even if I don't want to.
- marginalia_nu 2y ago
  Like I do think you can go overboard with this. You don't have to turn into Jocko Willinck or become a desert father, but just realizing that you can just grit through stuff even though it may suck, it's so empowering. I mean realistically if someone was attempting to get you to confess to something and they were torturing you by having you perform all these things you know you should be doing but don't really feel like doing today, it surely wouldn't come even close to breaking you? You've been made to book a dentist appointment to deal with that aching molar and forced to clean the oven and weren't given a cake for desert and now they want you to wash the car as well; if you're begging for mercy surely it's to escape from rolling at the floor form the laughably ineffectual torments.
  - RHSman2 2y ago
    Jocko’s and Goggins are good examples of it. And to be taken with a pinch of healthy salt To achieve stuff you have to have something that enables you to do it. Call that motivation/discipline or whatever but the ‘ball has to roll’
wklm 2y ago
thank you!

thefaux 2y ago

"Inspiration is for amateurs. The rest of us just show up and get to work. If you wait around for the clouds to part and a bolt of lightening to strike you in the brain, you are not going to make an awful lot of work. All the best ideas come out of the process; they come out of the work itself." ― Chuck Close Close is a complicated person but the quote holds up.

CuriouslyC 2y ago
Showing up and getting to work is a great mantra for people who already have traction. For people that aren't, that's a recipe for burnout, as you need space and time to keep pushing in the face of uncertain returns.

divan 2y ago

> It's a complete misconception of human psychology that motivation precedes action. It's not a misconception, it's the definition of motivation. The misconception is using the word "motivation" only for intrinsic motivation. If you have a gun pointed at your head, you'll be quite motivated to do whatever the person holding the gun tells you. External motivation can be extremely powerful, it just doesn't last long. > Act first, become motivated later. You're right. You need some external motivation to start "acting first". There are four types of external motivation (from more external to more internal) – fully external, introjected, identified, internal. Rewards and punishments are the first (external), rewards/punishments "in your head" (aka image of your parents telling you to do homework or you don't get TV time) are the second (introjected), part of your identity ("I'm Muslim, thus have to wear hijab") - third (identified), and "I truly believe I have to do something" is fourth (internal). Internal type of external motivation differs from intrinsic motivation (which is defined as "acting because I enjoy the process", and you can truly believe you have to do something but not enjoy it). Discipline and self-discipline are somewhere between introjected and internal types, but it's essentially a codename for external motivation nevertheless. In many cases you really want to instill intrinsic motivation in kids/athletes/employees/etc. But you need to "act first" and repetitively link it to the positive emotions – and that's where external motivation (and discipline) can be used strategically to create intrinsic one. Unfortunately a lot of people/fields/disciplines get stuck in the external reward systems and don't use it strategically.

marginalia_nu 2y ago
This is all fine modelling, but doesn't have much bearing on the experience of being human. It's a description, and describing something (regardless of which words you use) does not change its nature. Motivation, in the sense of "I feel a desire to perform an act I deem to align with what I want to do although it will bring me immediate-term discomfort", that type of motivation, whatever you call it, does not precede prior success in that activity; that type of motivation, whatever you call it, will go away in the face of hardships and struggles; that type of motivation, whatever you call it, is not necessary to perform the task at hand.
- divan 2y ago
  > "I feel a desire to perform an act I deem to align with what I want to do although it will bring me immediate-term discomfort" It's an _internal type_ of "extrinsic motivation", right. > will go away in the face of hardships and struggles Yes, and this is true for all types of extrinsic motivation. > doesn't precede the success Well, that's where things get interesting. There are three main factors that influence motivation – autonomy, competence and relatedness. Autonomy - perception of your actions being connected to your own values/beliefs/desires. Competence - perception of your actions being connected to the growth or achievement. Relatedness - perception of your actions bringing closer to the people you care about. Those 4 types of extrinsic motivation go mostly on the scale of decreasing autonomy. And it's important to say that all types of motivation have slightly different natures and can work simultaneously, just one of those will dominate. So you are probably right saying that the internal type of extrinsic motivation doesn't require prior success. But, once you start doing it, the perception of success (whatever that means in a given context) will greatly contribute to shifting your dominant motivation either closer to the intrinsic motivation (i.e. you'll start enjoying) or towards amotivation (opposite extreme side). Perception of success is mostly a "competence" part. That's how the coach might choose the right level of challenge for the athlete, to keep their motivation growing (or at least not falling). And if you really want to build intrinsic motivation, you absolutely need it. And yes, not every task require intrinsic motivation. But it would be also true to say, that every task will benefit greatly if people performing it are intrinsically motivated. There are two main reasons: efficiency and... people happiness. An intrinsically motivated person will require less pressure/incentives, will keep doing the task amid hardships. Which directly translates into economic value. It also directly linked to the feeling of wellbeing and vitality (aka happiness). It might not be very important for whoever needs task to be done, but a society where autonomy is inhibited and extrinsic motivation is dominating is very different from society with high level of autonomy. It's like, people are just happier.

loa_in_ 2y ago

It's more of a failing of modern world to not cultivate this kind of motivation than a misconception.

marginalia_nu 2y ago
If you can't do anything without feeling stoked to do it, there's just so much stuff you're never going to be able to do. Doing things that are uncomfortable and unappealing is such an important life skill.

m3kw9 2y ago

I believe a task without motivation is pointless. If you are not motivated but is doing it anyway, it already has innate motivation, you just may not admit it is. Not motivated to pay your bills? You do it anyways because not getting services cut off is actually the motivation, or that “I always pay up“ is motivating you

nuancebydefault 2y ago

I find that sometimes there is just no motivation, there's even a big reluctance. It's very weird how or why this happens now and then. Maybe it is a natural protection mechanism kicking in, or maybe it is just a chemical imbalance of hormones involved in the reward system. 'Just do it' (tm) does not work in those cases. After a while i just google 'how to get out of a rut' and that works after some undefined amount of wasted time. Another trick to fall back onto, is changing jobs.

nottommo 2y ago

I don't really understand this line of thinking, but maybe we have different definitions of motivation. If you are not using motivation to do things what is the reason you to do things? For me anything I do is because I am motivated to do it.

marginalia_nu 2y ago
Isn't it possible, even common, to seek an outcome, but not feel inclined to do the thing that takes you toward that outcome? I don't think there's anyone who doesn't want a fit body, yet to borrow a phrase, "nobody wants to lift no heavy-ass weights"

epolanski 2y ago

+1. My life started working out okay when I started relying on discipline. Doing things even if I don't want to.

marginalia_nu 2y ago
Like I do think you can go overboard with this. You don't have to turn into Jocko Willinck or become a desert father, but just realizing that you can just grit through stuff even though it may suck, it's so empowering. I mean realistically if someone was attempting to get you to confess to something and they were torturing you by having you perform all these things you know you should be doing but don't really feel like doing today, it surely wouldn't come even close to breaking you? You've been made to book a dentist appointment to deal with that aching molar and forced to clean the oven and weren't given a cake for desert and now they want you to wash the car as well; if you're begging for mercy surely it's to escape from rolling at the floor form the laughably ineffectual torments.
- RHSman2 2y ago
  Jocko’s and Goggins are good examples of it. And to be taken with a pinch of healthy salt To achieve stuff you have to have something that enables you to do it. Call that motivation/discipline or whatever but the ‘ball has to roll’

wklm 2y ago

thank you!