5 ms·

> I don't understand how this much power over the US was ever deemed acceptable? Free speech sometimes applies to things you don’t like. There’s pro and anti p

by Retric 2y ago

> I don't understand how this much power over the US was ever deemed acceptable? Free speech sometimes applies to things you don’t like. There’s pro and anti propaganda for just about any foreign interest. Some of it’s just more subtle such as recommendations on TikTok. Ukraine had really obvious pro Ukraine requests for military aid and images of destruction, but quite a bit of pro Russia propaganda was more subtle aiming for people to stay out of it. With Israel you see some really blatant pro Israel propaganda, but both sides also have a lot of more subtle stuff.

ESTheComposer 2y ago
I believe the issue here is how much sway Israel has on the US and how rabid many US politicians are about Israel (to the point where many straight up accuse you of anti semitism if you just criticize the country or their policies) Also issues like where you are not allowed to refuse to work with Israel if you are an arms manufacturer in the US (but you can refuse to work with the US military). I know that part of that is due to Israel being part of the FMS list but they are also the largest recipient on it...
justin66 2y ago
> Free speech sometimes applies to things you don’t like. ...and in the United States we've defined down "free speech" to include "monetary donations."
- fsckboy 2y ago
  somebody needs to pay for the billboard, or rent a hall to give a speech, or printing the flyers for your lost cat. How is money not essential to speech? Your proposal is that to support a cause, one should only be allowed to go outside and yell, because that's purer than the corrupting influence of money?
  - pnut 2y ago
    Once money gets involved, you inherently have a commercial interest. What's the ROI? I personally think people misunderstand to whom "freedom" is granted and defended in the US, it is demonstrably not freedom of the individual, but of the powerful.
    - fsckboy 2y ago
      money is quite simply not inherently commercial free speech is a legal concept, and ROI is not a legal concept; when debts are enforced by courts, they frequently don't even enforce interest as if time value of money doesn't exist.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - justin66 2y ago
    The nature of the strawman you've stood up to to represent my "proposal" (who knew I had a proposal?) suggests you're not even familiar with the history of the legal debate in the United States surrounding the 1st amendment and political donations. So I guess I would propose you read up on that.
1shooner 2y ago
Speaking of free speech, can you name another foreign interest that has managed to make it illegal in the US to boycott it's companies?
- dfxm12 2y ago
  To add some context in case people aren't aware: https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20181218-texas-teacher-fired-for-refusing-to-sign-anti-bds-oath/ https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20181218-texas-teacher-fir...
- Retric 2y ago
  “Texas enacted a law in May 2017 prohibiting state agencies from signing contracts with companies that boycott Israel.” I’m not particularly happy about that law or similar ones in other states, but what you said is inaccurate.
  - asadotzler 2y ago
    There's nothing inaccurate about what he said. These laws make it illegal for Americans from boycotting Israel. As an American state employee, organizing a boycott against Israel will get you fired or arrested because allowing it would be breaking the law.
    - ithkuil 2y ago
      There is an interesting caveat in the law: it only applies to boycotts against u.s. allies that are promoted or imposed by intergovernmental organizations (IGOs) The moment anybody else in the world stops boycotting Israel then finally Texas citizens will be fully free to boycott Israel
    - Retric 2y ago
      Nope, being illegal means something else. Nobody is going to be fined or go to jail for openly boycotting Israel. An amusement park can boycott Israel, they can say so in big bold letters on their commercials etc, and the state isn’t going to do anything. Therefore All companies ARE allowed to “boycott energy companies, discriminate against firearm entities or associations, or boycott Israel” https://texasattorneygeneral.gov/sites/default/files/images/executive-management/OAG%20advisory%20on%20SB%2013%20and%2019%2010.18.23.pdf https://texasattorneygeneral.gov/sites/default/files/images/... Not doing business is something else. States regularly prohibit companies over 500 employees from signing specific contracts, that doesn’t make it illegal to be a company with over 500 employees.
asadotzler 2y ago
Like the kind of free speech you get when Israel's lobby drafts and helps pass laws that making boycotts of Israel illegal?
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- Retric 2y ago
  That’s incorrect. There’s zero US laws that make it illegal to boycott Israel. Open a carwash in Texas and you can put up big posers saying you’re boycotting Israel and the state isn’t going to do crap. There are state laws that prohibit state agencies from contracting such companies, but that’s a different question and only really applies to a small percentage of companies. If you disagree try and post full text of the actual legislation it’s completely clear what’s going on.
  - Levitz 2y ago
    Boycotting Israel is illegal for any company that works with state agencies. It's way more restrictive, yes. It's still surreal to me.
    - deleted 2y ago
      [deleted]
    - its_ethan 2y ago
      It's illegal for any company that works with state agencies to boycott any of our allies.. Israel is a common example because most (all?) countries surrounding it in the middle east try to sneak in Israel boycott terms into every little contract, so it's the most common. But the same is true if someone wanted to boycott Canada. That company wouldn't be able to work/contract with state agencies. In what way is that surreal or surprising?
    - Retric 2y ago
      The distinction might seem subtle, but even then it’s not illegal. Also it’s not every contract between companies and the state. Texas uses 10+ employees companies and 100,000+$ contracts as the minimum threshold before language must be added to the contract during the terms of the contract. But after signing such a contract the company is still only bound by a contract. Breaking contracts happens all the time it’s not illegal. Excluding Fraud etc it becomes a civil rather than a criminal matter.

by Retric 2y ago

ESTheComposer 2y ago

I believe the issue here is how much sway Israel has on the US and how rabid many US politicians are about Israel (to the point where many straight up accuse you of anti semitism if you just criticize the country or their policies) Also issues like where you are not allowed to refuse to work with Israel if you are an arms manufacturer in the US (but you can refuse to work with the US military). I know that part of that is due to Israel being part of the FMS list but they are also the largest recipient on it...

justin66 2y ago

> Free speech sometimes applies to things you don’t like. ...and in the United States we've defined down "free speech" to include "monetary donations."

fsckboy 2y ago
somebody needs to pay for the billboard, or rent a hall to give a speech, or printing the flyers for your lost cat. How is money not essential to speech? Your proposal is that to support a cause, one should only be allowed to go outside and yell, because that's purer than the corrupting influence of money?
- pnut 2y ago
  Once money gets involved, you inherently have a commercial interest. What's the ROI? I personally think people misunderstand to whom "freedom" is granted and defended in the US, it is demonstrably not freedom of the individual, but of the powerful.
  - fsckboy 2y ago
    money is quite simply not inherently commercial free speech is a legal concept, and ROI is not a legal concept; when debts are enforced by courts, they frequently don't even enforce interest as if time value of money doesn't exist.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
- justin66 2y ago
  The nature of the strawman you've stood up to to represent my "proposal" (who knew I had a proposal?) suggests you're not even familiar with the history of the legal debate in the United States surrounding the 1st amendment and political donations. So I guess I would propose you read up on that.

1shooner 2y ago

Speaking of free speech, can you name another foreign interest that has managed to make it illegal in the US to boycott it's companies?

dfxm12 2y ago
To add some context in case people aren't aware: https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20181218-texas-teacher-fired-for-refusing-to-sign-anti-bds-oath/ https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20181218-texas-teacher-fir...
Retric 2y ago
“Texas enacted a law in May 2017 prohibiting state agencies from signing contracts with companies that boycott Israel.” I’m not particularly happy about that law or similar ones in other states, but what you said is inaccurate.
- asadotzler 2y ago
  There's nothing inaccurate about what he said. These laws make it illegal for Americans from boycotting Israel. As an American state employee, organizing a boycott against Israel will get you fired or arrested because allowing it would be breaking the law.
  - ithkuil 2y ago
    There is an interesting caveat in the law: it only applies to boycotts against u.s. allies that are promoted or imposed by intergovernmental organizations (IGOs) The moment anybody else in the world stops boycotting Israel then finally Texas citizens will be fully free to boycott Israel
  - Retric 2y ago
    Nope, being illegal means something else. Nobody is going to be fined or go to jail for openly boycotting Israel. An amusement park can boycott Israel, they can say so in big bold letters on their commercials etc, and the state isn’t going to do anything. Therefore All companies ARE allowed to “boycott energy companies, discriminate against firearm entities or associations, or boycott Israel” https://texasattorneygeneral.gov/sites/default/files/images/executive-management/OAG%20advisory%20on%20SB%2013%20and%2019%2010.18.23.pdf https://texasattorneygeneral.gov/sites/default/files/images/... Not doing business is something else. States regularly prohibit companies over 500 employees from signing specific contracts, that doesn’t make it illegal to be a company with over 500 employees.

asadotzler 2y ago

Like the kind of free speech you get when Israel's lobby drafts and helps pass laws that making boycotts of Israel illegal?

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
Retric 2y ago
That’s incorrect. There’s zero US laws that make it illegal to boycott Israel. Open a carwash in Texas and you can put up big posers saying you’re boycotting Israel and the state isn’t going to do crap. There are state laws that prohibit state agencies from contracting such companies, but that’s a different question and only really applies to a small percentage of companies. If you disagree try and post full text of the actual legislation it’s completely clear what’s going on.
- Levitz 2y ago
  Boycotting Israel is illegal for any company that works with state agencies. It's way more restrictive, yes. It's still surreal to me.
  - deleted 2y ago
    [deleted]
  - its_ethan 2y ago
    It's illegal for any company that works with state agencies to boycott any of our allies.. Israel is a common example because most (all?) countries surrounding it in the middle east try to sneak in Israel boycott terms into every little contract, so it's the most common. But the same is true if someone wanted to boycott Canada. That company wouldn't be able to work/contract with state agencies. In what way is that surreal or surprising?
  - Retric 2y ago
    The distinction might seem subtle, but even then it’s not illegal. Also it’s not every contract between companies and the state. Texas uses 10+ employees companies and 100,000+$ contracts as the minimum threshold before language must be added to the contract during the terms of the contract. But after signing such a contract the company is still only bound by a contract. Breaking contracts happens all the time it’s not illegal. Excluding Fraud etc it becomes a civil rather than a criminal matter.