5 ms·

General lack of countries with something even vaguely resembling representative government in the Middle East. Israel seems to only extend that sort of courtes

General lack of countries with something even vaguely resembling representative government in the Middle East. Israel seems to only extend that sort of courtesy to a part of its citizenry, but when you remember that the "stable" countries in the region are all more-or-less absolute monarchies, it becomes obvious why the US is willing to at least work with Israel.

TedDoesntTalk 2y ago
> Israel seems to only extend that sort of courtesy to a part of its citizenry There have been over 100 Arabs in the Israeli parliament: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Arab_members_of_the_Knesset https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Arab_members_of_the_Kn...
- lenerdenator 2y ago
  Good for them. But if you're Arab Israeli, you don't have the same slate of rights and representation that Jewish Israelis have. See: freedom of movement to and from the Gaza Strip prior to October 7th.
  - invalidname 2y ago
    [flagged]
  - idunnoman1222 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - jedimind 2y ago
      David Wasserstein, Professor of Jewish History: "Islam saved Jewry. This is an unpopular, discomforting claim in the modern world. But it is a historical truth." https://www.thejc.com/lets-talk/so-what-did-the-muslims-do-for-the-jews-dp63sti8 https://www.thejc.com/lets-talk/so-what-did-the-muslims-do-f... https://jewishstudies.stanford.edu/events/david-wasserstein-how-islam-saved-jews https://jewishstudies.stanford.edu/events/david-wasserstein-...
  - halflife 2y ago
    Arabs has 100% the same rights as Israelis. The freedom of movements to Gaza was not allowed to Jews as well (or every Israeli), since this is an enemy territory. So I challenge you to find 1 law that treats Jews and Arab citizens differently in Israel
    - ESTheComposer 2y ago
      Literally not difficult to find the reality: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel#Civil_rights https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel#Civil_... It's the same as the US's treatment of African Americans for decades; legally they have the same rights but the reality of how they get treated by their government is much different. Just pointing out "Aha! They are equal under law!" is misleading and tries to shut the issue down
    - nwah1 2y ago
      The only Arab-Israeli that ever thought it would be a good idea to wander into Gaza was a mentally ill young man named Hisham al-Sayed a decade ago, and he has been a hostage there ever since. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67165002 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67165002
  - edanm 2y ago
    > But if you're Arab Israeli, you don't have the same slate of rights and representation that Jewish Israelis have. You're mixing up two different things. Arab Israelis (as Israel calls them) are Israeli citizens. They have the same rights as any Israeli citizen. Freedom of movement to and from the Gaza strip is of Gazans, who are not Israeli citizens, and they indeed don't have the same rights in Israel as Israeli citizens.
pphysch 2y ago
> Israel seems to only extend that sort of courtesy to a part of its citizenry, but when you remember that the "stable" countries in the region are all more-or-less absolute monarchies, it becomes obvious why the US is willing to at least work with Israel. More directly: apartheid "democracy" > monarchy?
- lenerdenator 2y ago
  According to the wisdom of US foreign policy, yes. For what it's worth, the US has also tried to work a two-state solution over the last 30 years with various degrees of vigor. That became much harder to accomplish when the Gaza Strip decided to elect Hamas to lead its government in 2006-07.
  - dragonwriter 2y ago
    > For what it's worth, the US has also tried to work a two-state solution over the last 30 years with various degrees of vigor. That became much harder to accomplish when the Gaza Strip decided to elect Hamas to lead its government in 2006-07. It became much harder when the Israeli hard Right murdered Yitzhak Rabin in 1995 and then took over the Israeli government with Netanyahu's election in 1996. Both fairly explicitly in reaction against the idea of ever accepting a Palestinian State.
    - nsguy 2y ago
      It's worth mentioning that Rabin's murder was almost certainly related/triggered to the wave of suicide bombing attacks by Hamas that came as a response to the peace process. The Israeli right was up in arms about how the peace process was leading to terrorism. I.e. the root cause of this was Palestinians, not Israelis.
      - no_exit 2y ago
        > the wave of suicide bombing attacks by Hamas that came as a response to the peace process The Hamas suicide bombings in 1994 were in response to the massacre committed by Jewish terrorist Baruch Goldstein in February. The first bombing of the "wave" happened in April. [1] > This was the first suicide bombing attack to be carried out by Palestinian militants against Israeli civilians in Israel, and was carried out in retaliation for the killing by a settler of 29 Muslims while they were at prayer in the Ibrahimi mosque in Hebron on 25 February. > I.e. the root cause of this was Palestinians, not Israelis. I.e. This is grossly disingenuous. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afula_Bus_suicide_bombing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afula_Bus_suicide_bombing
tacheiordache 2y ago
> the US is willing to at least work with Israel What do you mean at least work with Israel? The US is propping up Israel and without that ally Israel would probably implode. What’s messed up is how disrespectful Israel and some of their politicians are to US and their citizens. One thing I like about Israel is that they have a variety of oppinions and schools of thought. What we’re currently seeing is coming from the radical right wing and those atrocities will unfortunately stain Israelis of all types. Hope they do at the next elections.
- lenerdenator 2y ago
  Israel is a postindustrial economy with a 600,000-man military reserve and (unofficially) a nuclear arsenal of the size and capability needed to destroy the society of any industrialized nation on Earth. Almost all of the support and protection they've received from the US since October has been mainly to keep leverage on Netanyahu and to keep the war from spreading across the Middle East. For example, if Iran's missiles had bombarded Tel Aviv, you're probably going to see Israel bombarding Tehran, which could pull in Iraq, etc., and Israel has yet to lose a fight against its regional neighbors. They don't need the US to prop them up economically or militarily, which should bring about a conversation about support come next budget, but I doubt it. I too would like to see a more moderate group in charge.
  - mike50 2y ago
    Which Israeli defense contractors build airplanes and tanks? Without aircraft and spares you cannot have a modern military. The US absolutely props up Israeli with weapons and military technology that they do not produce in country. Waving around nuclear weapons and a massive number of troops are the actions of states that are weaker then project as (Russia DPRK).
    - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
      > Which Israeli defense contractors build airplanes and tanks? Neither do the North Koreans [1][2]? (Caveats [3][4].) America dropping Israel simply means it finds a new supplier. Russia is out of the picture, given its dependence on Iran, but China and India would be more than willing to supply. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_People's_Army_Air_Force https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_People's_Army_Air_For... [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanks_of_North_Korea https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanks_of_North_Korea [3] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pokpung-ho https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pokpung-ho [4] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merkava https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merkava
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
School-Cotton 2y ago
Iraq and Lebanon both more closely "vaguely resemble" representative government than Israel does. For all their problems, at least all the people they rule over are allowed to be citizens and vote.
- amitport 2y ago
  500k Palestinians in Lebanon, 2nd-3rd generation "refugees", are not allowed to be citizens and do not have a vote. (Palestinians are the only people in the world who the UN allow to inherit this status) And now... Iraq?! you must be joking or cynic
  - School-Cotton 2y ago
    That is a fair point. The way Lebanon treats Palestinians is terrible and they should not get a free pass when people criticize Israel.
    - nsguy 2y ago
      They're also expelling Syrian refugees right now which is not getting a lot of coverage: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-69059929 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-69059929
    - amitport 2y ago
      The free pass is given by the UN. Imagine if in the last century, the billions of refugees and descendants of refugees of the world, would all still be kept as ethernal refugees. The nations of the world are a condescending bunch. Implying that the Palestinians are not to be treated as equals to Germans, Ukrainians, etc.,
- nsguy 2y ago
  Iraq and Lebanon are far from free and democratic countries. https://freedomhouse.org/country/iraq/freedom-world/2024 https://freedomhouse.org/country/iraq/freedom-world/2024 https://freedomhouse.org/country/lebanon/freedom-world/2024 https://freedomhouse.org/country/lebanon/freedom-world/2024 https://freedomhouse.org/country/israel/freedom-world/2024 https://freedomhouse.org/country/israel/freedom-world/2024
nitwit005 2y ago
Most Americans have no idea how Israel is governed. Even grasping the basics of how the United States government works is sadly not guaranteed. All most people know is the spin they've gotten from the media and politicians. Both tend to be very pro Israel in the US. That's changed a little recently, but not much.

TedDoesntTalk 2y ago

> Israel seems to only extend that sort of courtesy to a part of its citizenry There have been over 100 Arabs in the Israeli parliament: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Arab_members_of_the_Knesset https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Arab_members_of_the_Kn...

lenerdenator 2y ago
Good for them. But if you're Arab Israeli, you don't have the same slate of rights and representation that Jewish Israelis have. See: freedom of movement to and from the Gaza Strip prior to October 7th.
- invalidname 2y ago
  [flagged]
- idunnoman1222 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - jedimind 2y ago
    David Wasserstein, Professor of Jewish History: "Islam saved Jewry. This is an unpopular, discomforting claim in the modern world. But it is a historical truth." https://www.thejc.com/lets-talk/so-what-did-the-muslims-do-for-the-jews-dp63sti8 https://www.thejc.com/lets-talk/so-what-did-the-muslims-do-f... https://jewishstudies.stanford.edu/events/david-wasserstein-how-islam-saved-jews https://jewishstudies.stanford.edu/events/david-wasserstein-...
- halflife 2y ago
  Arabs has 100% the same rights as Israelis. The freedom of movements to Gaza was not allowed to Jews as well (or every Israeli), since this is an enemy territory. So I challenge you to find 1 law that treats Jews and Arab citizens differently in Israel
  - ESTheComposer 2y ago
    Literally not difficult to find the reality: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel#Civil_rights https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_citizens_of_Israel#Civil_... It's the same as the US's treatment of African Americans for decades; legally they have the same rights but the reality of how they get treated by their government is much different. Just pointing out "Aha! They are equal under law!" is misleading and tries to shut the issue down
  - nwah1 2y ago
    The only Arab-Israeli that ever thought it would be a good idea to wander into Gaza was a mentally ill young man named Hisham al-Sayed a decade ago, and he has been a hostage there ever since. https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67165002 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-67165002
- edanm 2y ago
  > But if you're Arab Israeli, you don't have the same slate of rights and representation that Jewish Israelis have. You're mixing up two different things. Arab Israelis (as Israel calls them) are Israeli citizens. They have the same rights as any Israeli citizen. Freedom of movement to and from the Gaza strip is of Gazans, who are not Israeli citizens, and they indeed don't have the same rights in Israel as Israeli citizens.

pphysch 2y ago

> Israel seems to only extend that sort of courtesy to a part of its citizenry, but when you remember that the "stable" countries in the region are all more-or-less absolute monarchies, it becomes obvious why the US is willing to at least work with Israel. More directly: apartheid "democracy" > monarchy?

lenerdenator 2y ago
According to the wisdom of US foreign policy, yes. For what it's worth, the US has also tried to work a two-state solution over the last 30 years with various degrees of vigor. That became much harder to accomplish when the Gaza Strip decided to elect Hamas to lead its government in 2006-07.
- dragonwriter 2y ago
  > For what it's worth, the US has also tried to work a two-state solution over the last 30 years with various degrees of vigor. That became much harder to accomplish when the Gaza Strip decided to elect Hamas to lead its government in 2006-07. It became much harder when the Israeli hard Right murdered Yitzhak Rabin in 1995 and then took over the Israeli government with Netanyahu's election in 1996. Both fairly explicitly in reaction against the idea of ever accepting a Palestinian State.
  - nsguy 2y ago
    It's worth mentioning that Rabin's murder was almost certainly related/triggered to the wave of suicide bombing attacks by Hamas that came as a response to the peace process. The Israeli right was up in arms about how the peace process was leading to terrorism. I.e. the root cause of this was Palestinians, not Israelis.
    - no_exit 2y ago
      > the wave of suicide bombing attacks by Hamas that came as a response to the peace process The Hamas suicide bombings in 1994 were in response to the massacre committed by Jewish terrorist Baruch Goldstein in February. The first bombing of the "wave" happened in April. [1] > This was the first suicide bombing attack to be carried out by Palestinian militants against Israeli civilians in Israel, and was carried out in retaliation for the killing by a settler of 29 Muslims while they were at prayer in the Ibrahimi mosque in Hebron on 25 February. > I.e. the root cause of this was Palestinians, not Israelis. I.e. This is grossly disingenuous. [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afula_Bus_suicide_bombing https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afula_Bus_suicide_bombing

tacheiordache 2y ago

> the US is willing to at least work with Israel What do you mean at least work with Israel? The US is propping up Israel and without that ally Israel would probably implode. What’s messed up is how disrespectful Israel and some of their politicians are to US and their citizens. One thing I like about Israel is that they have a variety of oppinions and schools of thought. What we’re currently seeing is coming from the radical right wing and those atrocities will unfortunately stain Israelis of all types. Hope they do at the next elections.

lenerdenator 2y ago
Israel is a postindustrial economy with a 600,000-man military reserve and (unofficially) a nuclear arsenal of the size and capability needed to destroy the society of any industrialized nation on Earth. Almost all of the support and protection they've received from the US since October has been mainly to keep leverage on Netanyahu and to keep the war from spreading across the Middle East. For example, if Iran's missiles had bombarded Tel Aviv, you're probably going to see Israel bombarding Tehran, which could pull in Iraq, etc., and Israel has yet to lose a fight against its regional neighbors. They don't need the US to prop them up economically or militarily, which should bring about a conversation about support come next budget, but I doubt it. I too would like to see a more moderate group in charge.
- mike50 2y ago
  Which Israeli defense contractors build airplanes and tanks? Without aircraft and spares you cannot have a modern military. The US absolutely props up Israeli with weapons and military technology that they do not produce in country. Waving around nuclear weapons and a massive number of troops are the actions of states that are weaker then project as (Russia DPRK).
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > Which Israeli defense contractors build airplanes and tanks? Neither do the North Koreans [1][2]? (Caveats [3][4].) America dropping Israel simply means it finds a new supplier. Russia is out of the picture, given its dependence on Iran, but China and India would be more than willing to supply. [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_People's_Army_Air_Force https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_People's_Army_Air_For... [2] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanks_of_North_Korea https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tanks_of_North_Korea [3] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pokpung-ho https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pokpung-ho [4] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merkava https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Merkava

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

School-Cotton 2y ago

Iraq and Lebanon both more closely "vaguely resemble" representative government than Israel does. For all their problems, at least all the people they rule over are allowed to be citizens and vote.

amitport 2y ago
500k Palestinians in Lebanon, 2nd-3rd generation "refugees", are not allowed to be citizens and do not have a vote. (Palestinians are the only people in the world who the UN allow to inherit this status) And now... Iraq?! you must be joking or cynic
- School-Cotton 2y ago
  That is a fair point. The way Lebanon treats Palestinians is terrible and they should not get a free pass when people criticize Israel.
  - nsguy 2y ago
    They're also expelling Syrian refugees right now which is not getting a lot of coverage: https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-69059929 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-69059929
  - amitport 2y ago
    The free pass is given by the UN. Imagine if in the last century, the billions of refugees and descendants of refugees of the world, would all still be kept as ethernal refugees. The nations of the world are a condescending bunch. Implying that the Palestinians are not to be treated as equals to Germans, Ukrainians, etc.,
nsguy 2y ago
Iraq and Lebanon are far from free and democratic countries. https://freedomhouse.org/country/iraq/freedom-world/2024 https://freedomhouse.org/country/iraq/freedom-world/2024 https://freedomhouse.org/country/lebanon/freedom-world/2024 https://freedomhouse.org/country/lebanon/freedom-world/2024 https://freedomhouse.org/country/israel/freedom-world/2024 https://freedomhouse.org/country/israel/freedom-world/2024

nitwit005 2y ago

Most Americans have no idea how Israel is governed. Even grasping the basics of how the United States government works is sadly not guaranteed. All most people know is the spin they've gotten from the media and politicians. Both tend to be very pro Israel in the US. That's changed a little recently, but not much.