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"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, prom

"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America." That sounds an awful lot like "human dignity" to me. Not to mention pretty much the entirety of the Bill of Rights. Exactly what definition of "human dignity" are you using here?

jfengel 2y ago
The preamble says practically nothing about individual people. It's all about group behavior. The Bill of Rights does say more, but it has large gaps. For comparison, have a look at the German Basic Law: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Basic_Law_for_the_Federal_Republic_of_Germany_(1991) https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Basic_Law_for_the_Federal_Rep... Some choice bits: * Men and women have equal rights. * Everyone has the right to the free development of his personality insofar as he does not violate the rights of others or offend against the constitutional order or the moral code. * The dignity of man is inviolable. To respect and protect it is the duty of all state authority. These are vague, but no vaguer than the US First Amendment, which is rife with all kinds of unspoken limitations. One interesting one: * With regard to open-air meetings [the right to assemble] may be restricted by or pursuant to a law. The US Supreme Court decided that our right to assemble means that the Westboro Baptist Church has the right to be really horrific shitweeds, at funerals. Being abominable is their purpose. They want to make people feel shitty. The German constitution considered those possibilities and decided that the freedom of association could be limited. These are the kinds of things that we didn't consider in the Constitution. We've patched around it -- like the fact that libel and slander are illegal, despite that seeming to me as a pretty direct contradiction to the First Amendment. The German one goes on and on with details. They were written based on their experiences in the 20th century. We find it very hard to fix that.
- Turing_Machine 2y ago
  > like the fact that libel and slander are illegal, despite that seeming to me as a pretty direct contradiction to the First Amendment. Libel and slander are civil torts. The First Amendment only applies to the government. You cannot, in general, be sued for libel or slander if the quasi-victim is the government, or a government official. You're free to call politicians every nasty name in the book and they can't do much about it. That's what the First Amendment is about.
ryandrake 2y ago
There is a hint of it in "promote the general Welfare" but they could have elaborated further. Also, choosing to use the word "promote" rather than "ensure" or "guarantee" is telling. They valued human dignity and wellness, but not enough to guarantee a right to it. For example, they could have guaranteed humans have the right to (physical and economic) access to adequate food. I think we can all agree that food security is a human dignity issue. But they didn't include such a right, and indeed even as recently as 2017, the USA was one of only two countries in the world that voted[1] against a Right To Food at the UN Human Rights Council. Same goes for any right to access to clean water, sanitation, clothing, shelter, and so on. None of these are actually guaranteed by the USA, although some states have taken steps in this area. 1: https://geneva.usmission.gov/2017/03/24/u-s-explanation-of-vote-on-the-right-to-food/ https://geneva.usmission.gov/2017/03/24/u-s-explanation-of-v...
- Turing_Machine 2y ago
  > the USA was one of only two countries in the world that voted[1] against a Right To Food at the UN Human Rights Council So, excluding medical conditions, such as anorexia, approximately how many U.S. citizens would you estimate die of starvation in any given year? Hint: it's pretty damned close to zero. In my medium-sized city, there are at least 4 places I can think of off the top of my head where you can walk in and get a free meal at any time, no questions asked. I think there are probably more than four, actually.
  - eqvinox 2y ago
    > In my medium-sized city, there are at least 4 places I can think of off the top of my head where you can walk in and get a free meal at any time, no questions asked. And how many of these are provided by the government to ensure human dignity and/or other constitutional guarantees?

jfengel 2y ago

The preamble says practically nothing about individual people. It's all about group behavior. The Bill of Rights does say more, but it has large gaps. For comparison, have a look at the German Basic Law: https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Basic_Law_for_the_Federal_Republic_of_Germany_(1991) https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Basic_Law_for_the_Federal_Rep... Some choice bits: * Men and women have equal rights. * Everyone has the right to the free development of his personality insofar as he does not violate the rights of others or offend against the constitutional order or the moral code. * The dignity of man is inviolable. To respect and protect it is the duty of all state authority. These are vague, but no vaguer than the US First Amendment, which is rife with all kinds of unspoken limitations. One interesting one: * With regard to open-air meetings [the right to assemble] may be restricted by or pursuant to a law. The US Supreme Court decided that our right to assemble means that the Westboro Baptist Church has the right to be really horrific shitweeds, at funerals. Being abominable is their purpose. They want to make people feel shitty. The German constitution considered those possibilities and decided that the freedom of association could be limited. These are the kinds of things that we didn't consider in the Constitution. We've patched around it -- like the fact that libel and slander are illegal, despite that seeming to me as a pretty direct contradiction to the First Amendment. The German one goes on and on with details. They were written based on their experiences in the 20th century. We find it very hard to fix that.

Turing_Machine 2y ago
> like the fact that libel and slander are illegal, despite that seeming to me as a pretty direct contradiction to the First Amendment. Libel and slander are civil torts. The First Amendment only applies to the government. You cannot, in general, be sued for libel or slander if the quasi-victim is the government, or a government official. You're free to call politicians every nasty name in the book and they can't do much about it. That's what the First Amendment is about.

ryandrake 2y ago

There is a hint of it in "promote the general Welfare" but they could have elaborated further. Also, choosing to use the word "promote" rather than "ensure" or "guarantee" is telling. They valued human dignity and wellness, but not enough to guarantee a right to it. For example, they could have guaranteed humans have the right to (physical and economic) access to adequate food. I think we can all agree that food security is a human dignity issue. But they didn't include such a right, and indeed even as recently as 2017, the USA was one of only two countries in the world that voted[1] against a Right To Food at the UN Human Rights Council. Same goes for any right to access to clean water, sanitation, clothing, shelter, and so on. None of these are actually guaranteed by the USA, although some states have taken steps in this area. 1: https://geneva.usmission.gov/2017/03/24/u-s-explanation-of-vote-on-the-right-to-food/ https://geneva.usmission.gov/2017/03/24/u-s-explanation-of-v...

Turing_Machine 2y ago
> the USA was one of only two countries in the world that voted[1] against a Right To Food at the UN Human Rights Council So, excluding medical conditions, such as anorexia, approximately how many U.S. citizens would you estimate die of starvation in any given year? Hint: it's pretty damned close to zero. In my medium-sized city, there are at least 4 places I can think of off the top of my head where you can walk in and get a free meal at any time, no questions asked. I think there are probably more than four, actually.
- eqvinox 2y ago
  > In my medium-sized city, there are at least 4 places I can think of off the top of my head where you can walk in and get a free meal at any time, no questions asked. And how many of these are provided by the government to ensure human dignity and/or other constitutional guarantees?