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Well their enemies used social accounts to garner support from US citizens so you've got to start somewhere! It's not like we haven't done this either. I worke

by cjk2 2y ago

Well their enemies used social accounts to garner support from US citizens so you've got to start somewhere! It's not like we haven't done this either. I worked for a company in 2005 which was doing this paid for by politicians. Moment I worked this out, I quit.

Kapura 2y ago
This seems extremely unethical no matter who is doing it.
- cjk2 2y ago
  100% agree (hence my point about quitting) but the problem is it's a difficult position to be in when everything is narrative driven and misreporting and propaganda are rife. You can sit there and do nothing and wait for your enemy to paint you in a bad light and the next thing you know your usual political allies are throwing money and aid at your enemy. Or you protect your citizens as best as possible by entering the game. The moral high ground may have a higher body count. This point applies to both sides for ref. And because it's a war, the rules of fair play go out of the window until people are on trial afterwards.
  - FpUser 2y ago
    >"until people are on trial afterwards" Speaking of trials: U.S. lawmakers had voted to sanction ICC if it tries to prosecute citizens of the US or it's allies. I guess it is always one rule for thee and another one for me. So much for rules based order.
    - cjk2 2y ago
      Well there's a problem here. There are rules. But no one really has to abide to them. There are no consequences against a sovereign nation other than political allegiance risk or travel risks for convicts.
  - gmdrd 2y ago
    > Or you protect your citizens as best as possible by entering the game. It doesn't seem reasonable to me to assume that the main objective of any government is to protect its citizens.
    - cjk2 2y ago
      I think that's just paranoia. The citizens generally are the government. It's not optimal but without the citizens there is no government.
- doubloon 2y ago
  during a war against an existential threat, propaganda is not unethical, its a duty and is to be expected. i dont know of a single country that wouldnt do the same in their position.
croes 2y ago
So it's ok to do something wrong, if others do it too?
- cjk2 2y ago
  It's a war. It's about doing wrong things until someone capitulates. I mean it'd be nice not to have them but as a species we're stupid animals with stupid ideas so there's no end of it in sight. I don't agree with any of it for ref.
  - afroboy 2y ago
    So Alqaeda was right?
CommanderData 2y ago
[flagged]
- cjk2 2y ago
  An exercise with war casualty stats you can do is look at previous wars and look at the variation in estimates in body counts for each side. Then factor that into the news you are reading it. End game is there has never been a credible body count from even a small scale war. So to claim anyone is right here on either side is probably selective bias on your part. At best when the dust has figuratively and literally settled, it'll be a decade before anyone has an even remotely credible count. Manipulation of the body counts is easy material for propaganda. It has been since the dawn of war. Factor child soldiers into these arguments and it gets very grey. The number itself without compounding facts has little meaning. And for the sake of credibility, the figures were later revised so you're not even quoting their current estimates and compromising your own credibility! https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/gaza-war-un-revises-death-toll-women-and-children https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/...
  - jedimind 2y ago
    "Two officials from the Palestinian Ministry of Health have told CNN that although the ministry keeps a separate death toll for identified and unidentified individuals, the total number of people killed remains unchanged. The total number of dead also does not include the approximately 10,000 people who are still missing and trapped under the rubble, the officials added. CNN has seen a daily report from the Palestinian health ministry which matches the number OCHA published in the revised version. A total of 15,103 children and 9,961 women have been killed in Gaza since October 7, the Gaza ministry of health said in its latest report." [0] https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/13/middleeast/death-toll-gaza-fatalities-un-intl-latam/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/13/middleeast/death-toll-gaza-fa... - Updated 2:12 AM EDT, Tue May 14, 2024
  - CommanderData 2y ago
    For the record I didn't verify the deaths, I looked at information release in past conflicts for the last 10 or so years *. "MoH statistics have also been verified by Human Rights Watch and used by the United States Department of State in past conflicts and as recently as March 2023, despite US President Joe Biden questioning those numbers without evidence." https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/5/14/has-the-un-really-said-fewer-people-were-killed-by-israel-in-gaza https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/5/14/has-the-un-really-s... Palestinian authorities were found to be releasing counts in good faith and never inflated numbers for the sake of an information war. This is a key point, why doubt an organisation that hasn't lied about it's death count before. Deny, Discredit, Disinform, Diffuse and Defray are things you'll see time and time again in threads like these. Now, it's a sobering thought 15,000+ children have been murdered, in 2023/2024. With full support of the US, 'ironclad' apparently.
Levitz 2y ago
>Well their enemies used social accounts to garner support from US citizens so you've got to start somewhere! I mean, if Israel started bombing me, I'd try to garner support from US citizens too? There is a world of difference between that and faking social media accounts

by cjk2 2y ago

Kapura 2y ago

This seems extremely unethical no matter who is doing it.

cjk2 2y ago
100% agree (hence my point about quitting) but the problem is it's a difficult position to be in when everything is narrative driven and misreporting and propaganda are rife. You can sit there and do nothing and wait for your enemy to paint you in a bad light and the next thing you know your usual political allies are throwing money and aid at your enemy. Or you protect your citizens as best as possible by entering the game. The moral high ground may have a higher body count. This point applies to both sides for ref. And because it's a war, the rules of fair play go out of the window until people are on trial afterwards.
- FpUser 2y ago
  >"until people are on trial afterwards" Speaking of trials: U.S. lawmakers had voted to sanction ICC if it tries to prosecute citizens of the US or it's allies. I guess it is always one rule for thee and another one for me. So much for rules based order.
  - cjk2 2y ago
    Well there's a problem here. There are rules. But no one really has to abide to them. There are no consequences against a sovereign nation other than political allegiance risk or travel risks for convicts.
- gmdrd 2y ago
  > Or you protect your citizens as best as possible by entering the game. It doesn't seem reasonable to me to assume that the main objective of any government is to protect its citizens.
  - cjk2 2y ago
    I think that's just paranoia. The citizens generally are the government. It's not optimal but without the citizens there is no government.
doubloon 2y ago
during a war against an existential threat, propaganda is not unethical, its a duty and is to be expected. i dont know of a single country that wouldnt do the same in their position.

croes 2y ago

So it's ok to do something wrong, if others do it too?

cjk2 2y ago
It's a war. It's about doing wrong things until someone capitulates. I mean it'd be nice not to have them but as a species we're stupid animals with stupid ideas so there's no end of it in sight. I don't agree with any of it for ref.
- afroboy 2y ago
  So Alqaeda was right?

CommanderData 2y ago

[flagged]

cjk2 2y ago
An exercise with war casualty stats you can do is look at previous wars and look at the variation in estimates in body counts for each side. Then factor that into the news you are reading it. End game is there has never been a credible body count from even a small scale war. So to claim anyone is right here on either side is probably selective bias on your part. At best when the dust has figuratively and literally settled, it'll be a decade before anyone has an even remotely credible count. Manipulation of the body counts is easy material for propaganda. It has been since the dawn of war. Factor child soldiers into these arguments and it gets very grey. The number itself without compounding facts has little meaning. And for the sake of credibility, the figures were later revised so you're not even quoting their current estimates and compromising your own credibility! https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/gaza-war-un-revises-death-toll-women-and-children https://reliefweb.int/report/occupied-palestinian-territory/...
- jedimind 2y ago
  "Two officials from the Palestinian Ministry of Health have told CNN that although the ministry keeps a separate death toll for identified and unidentified individuals, the total number of people killed remains unchanged. The total number of dead also does not include the approximately 10,000 people who are still missing and trapped under the rubble, the officials added. CNN has seen a daily report from the Palestinian health ministry which matches the number OCHA published in the revised version. A total of 15,103 children and 9,961 women have been killed in Gaza since October 7, the Gaza ministry of health said in its latest report." [0] https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/13/middleeast/death-toll-gaza-fatalities-un-intl-latam/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2024/05/13/middleeast/death-toll-gaza-fa... - Updated 2:12 AM EDT, Tue May 14, 2024
- CommanderData 2y ago
  For the record I didn't verify the deaths, I looked at information release in past conflicts for the last 10 or so years *. "MoH statistics have also been verified by Human Rights Watch and used by the United States Department of State in past conflicts and as recently as March 2023, despite US President Joe Biden questioning those numbers without evidence." https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/5/14/has-the-un-really-said-fewer-people-were-killed-by-israel-in-gaza https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2024/5/14/has-the-un-really-s... Palestinian authorities were found to be releasing counts in good faith and never inflated numbers for the sake of an information war. This is a key point, why doubt an organisation that hasn't lied about it's death count before. Deny, Discredit, Disinform, Diffuse and Defray are things you'll see time and time again in threads like these. Now, it's a sobering thought 15,000+ children have been murdered, in 2023/2024. With full support of the US, 'ironclad' apparently.

Levitz 2y ago

>Well their enemies used social accounts to garner support from US citizens so you've got to start somewhere! I mean, if Israel started bombing me, I'd try to garner support from US citizens too? There is a world of difference between that and faking social media accounts