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Do you know the Myers-Briggs personality indicators? The relevant one here in my mind is Judgemental/Perceptive: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myers-Briggs_Type_

by nir 14y ago

Do you know the Myers-Briggs personality indicators? The relevant one here in my mind is Judgemental/Perceptive: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myers-Briggs_Type_Indicator#Lifestyle:_judging.2Fperception_.28J.2FP.29 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myers-Briggs_Type_Indicator#Lif... Good online communities start with a lot of Perceptives, which are often interesting to listen to. At some point the Judgementals start appearing, and the discussion moves, to use a current example, from the structure and potential future implications of Stuxnet to whether Stuxnet is legal or America is hypocrite etc. The problem is that the arrival of the Judgementals is a positive feedback loop. Judgemental comments breed judgemental counter comments (pro/con) and soon the Perceptives are drowned out in the noise, leaving the discussion and further increasing the share of Judgemental comments. BTW I think the same happens everywhere where you cannot measure the actual worth of someone's contribution. Politics take over and intelligent people leave.

PaulHoule 14y ago
"The world is made out of two kinds of people..." Some discussion formats encourage this (Amazon Forums, LinkedIn) and other publishers encourage the battle of the judgementals... The New York Times invented a new section of commentary designed specifically to encourage knock-down drag-out discussions that go nowhere. It's good for the numbers. Other phenomena contribute to heat death too. Forums on LinkedIn tend to be awful, particularly in the A.I. area. That's because anybody who knows anything has this neural net they're tending that works some miracle, and everything about it is a trade secret. The people who do talk want to rehash, over and over, unproductive questions like "What is intelligence?" ahd "Why has A.I. failed?" while the rest of us are quietly building systems that can do some of the things you do better than you can do it.
- nir 14y ago
  Yep, it's always hard to find the place where the builders converge as opposed to those who have opinions. That's what HN used to be, once.
hollerith 14y ago
Interesting theory. What do you think of the following test? Someone starts a new online "meeting-place" (yeah, I know, it takes a lot of work for a new one to get traction) and take pains to ensure that all the moderators are Perceptives. Make it an explicit norm of the meeting-place to avoid judgemental comments. Then wait to see whether this new meeting-place degrades less quickly than average. I tend to think that most people can learn not to express judgements if they want to become accepted by the others at the meeting-place (and that it is possible to exclude those who will not learn).
- nir 14y ago
  Seems to me the key is topics - it's easier to stay perceptive when discussing Python micro frameworks than the Middle East. When HN started featuring contentious topics like that, it brought out the judgmental side of people, and later influenced even technical threads. I remember first being impressed by HN when seeing a discussion on some PHP framework that didn't contain any of the inane "PHP sucks" slogans I've gotten used to on Proggit. That impressed me not because of my opinion on PHP, but because it was clear these people deal in building things - a language is a tool for them, not a fashion statement. As more recent PHP-related threads show, that's not the case anymore.
arn 14y ago
It's "Judging", not "Judgemental". It doesn't mean the same thing. http://users.trytel.com/~jfalt/Ene-med/j-p.html http://users.trytel.com/~jfalt/Ene-med/j-p.html "Judgers are very organized. They like to "plan their work and work their plan." A Judger likely has a day planner or if she doesn't have one, she carries one around in her head. Work is carried out in an orderly fashion. Even holidays need to follow a plan." "Perceivers like to go with the flow. If they have a "to do" list, it will likely be just a scrap of paper. They are always looking for new information."
tokenadult 14y ago
Obligatory references on the subject of the unvalidated Myers-Briggs Type Indicator®: http://www.skepdic.com/myersb.html http://www.skepdic.com/myersb.html http://www.psychometric-success.com/personality-tests/personality-tests-popular-tests.htm http://www.psychometric-success.com/personality-tests/person... "Overall, the review committee concluded that the MBTI has not demonstrated adequate validity although its popularity and use has been steadily increasing. The National Academy of Sciences review committee concluded that: ‘at this time, there is not sufficient, well-designed research to justify the use of the MBTI in career counseling programs’, the very thing that it is most often used for." http://www.indiana.edu/~jobtalk/HRMWebsite/hrm/articles/develop/mbti.pdf http://www.indiana.edu/~jobtalk/HRMWebsite/hrm/articles/deve... http://www.indiana.edu/~jobtalk/HRMWebsite/hrm/articles/develop/mbti.pdf http://www.indiana.edu/~jobtalk/HRMWebsite/hrm/articles/deve...
- nir 14y ago
  Sure, I don't really refer to Myers-Brigges as such but to the J/P distinction, which for me is a useful way to think about this.

by nir 14y ago

PaulHoule 14y ago

"The world is made out of two kinds of people..." Some discussion formats encourage this (Amazon Forums, LinkedIn) and other publishers encourage the battle of the judgementals... The New York Times invented a new section of commentary designed specifically to encourage knock-down drag-out discussions that go nowhere. It's good for the numbers. Other phenomena contribute to heat death too. Forums on LinkedIn tend to be awful, particularly in the A.I. area. That's because anybody who knows anything has this neural net they're tending that works some miracle, and everything about it is a trade secret. The people who do talk want to rehash, over and over, unproductive questions like "What is intelligence?" ahd "Why has A.I. failed?" while the rest of us are quietly building systems that can do some of the things you do better than you can do it.

nir 14y ago
Yep, it's always hard to find the place where the builders converge as opposed to those who have opinions. That's what HN used to be, once.

hollerith 14y ago

Interesting theory. What do you think of the following test? Someone starts a new online "meeting-place" (yeah, I know, it takes a lot of work for a new one to get traction) and take pains to ensure that all the moderators are Perceptives. Make it an explicit norm of the meeting-place to avoid judgemental comments. Then wait to see whether this new meeting-place degrades less quickly than average. I tend to think that most people can learn not to express judgements if they want to become accepted by the others at the meeting-place (and that it is possible to exclude those who will not learn).

nir 14y ago
Seems to me the key is topics - it's easier to stay perceptive when discussing Python micro frameworks than the Middle East. When HN started featuring contentious topics like that, it brought out the judgmental side of people, and later influenced even technical threads. I remember first being impressed by HN when seeing a discussion on some PHP framework that didn't contain any of the inane "PHP sucks" slogans I've gotten used to on Proggit. That impressed me not because of my opinion on PHP, but because it was clear these people deal in building things - a language is a tool for them, not a fashion statement. As more recent PHP-related threads show, that's not the case anymore.

arn 14y ago

It's "Judging", not "Judgemental". It doesn't mean the same thing. http://users.trytel.com/~jfalt/Ene-med/j-p.html http://users.trytel.com/~jfalt/Ene-med/j-p.html "Judgers are very organized. They like to "plan their work and work their plan." A Judger likely has a day planner or if she doesn't have one, she carries one around in her head. Work is carried out in an orderly fashion. Even holidays need to follow a plan." "Perceivers like to go with the flow. If they have a "to do" list, it will likely be just a scrap of paper. They are always looking for new information."

tokenadult 14y ago

Obligatory references on the subject of the unvalidated Myers-Briggs Type Indicator®: http://www.skepdic.com/myersb.html http://www.skepdic.com/myersb.html http://www.psychometric-success.com/personality-tests/personality-tests-popular-tests.htm http://www.psychometric-success.com/personality-tests/person... "Overall, the review committee concluded that the MBTI has not demonstrated adequate validity although its popularity and use has been steadily increasing. The National Academy of Sciences review committee concluded that: ‘at this time, there is not sufficient, well-designed research to justify the use of the MBTI in career counseling programs’, the very thing that it is most often used for." http://www.indiana.edu/~jobtalk/HRMWebsite/hrm/articles/develop/mbti.pdf http://www.indiana.edu/~jobtalk/HRMWebsite/hrm/articles/deve... http://www.indiana.edu/~jobtalk/HRMWebsite/hrm/articles/develop/mbti.pdf http://www.indiana.edu/~jobtalk/HRMWebsite/hrm/articles/deve...

nir 14y ago
Sure, I don't really refer to Myers-Brigges as such but to the J/P distinction, which for me is a useful way to think about this.