7 ms·

Turkey charges pianist Fazil Say over Twitter posts

63 points by ozgune 14y ago

baby 14y ago
I thought Turkey was a secular country?
- bergie 14y ago
  Turkey is secular by constitution, but the ruling AK party is Islamist.
- asto 14y ago
  Is there such a thing as a Muslim dominated country that's secular?
  - ebiester 14y ago
    Think the equivalent to the Republican party in the US.
    - cglace 14y ago
      Because only the democrats have seen the light? Just because republicans pander to ensure they get votes from a certain base does not mean all republicans are fundamentalists. Some of us vote republican because there isn't a viable libertarian candidate.
      - ebiester 14y ago
        Ah, but not all AKP voters are Islamist. The similarity is that both are primarily a union of social conservatives and pro-business voters (primarily -- Libertarianism as such isn't really common in Turkey from what I've seen, and analogies are rarely perfect.) But if you don't think that the discourse in the Republican party isn't heavily influenced by Christianists... (And the two countries' opposition parties are quite different.)
  - sk5t 14y ago
    The USA is a secular country, but just try running for major office as anything but Judeo-Christian...
- Aruz 14y ago
  Yes you right. Turkey is a secular country. And government type is republican perliamentary democracy.
hellerbarde 14y ago
Nobody has the right to never be offended. Y u no understand that, Turkey?
mahmud 14y ago
I know Islam is the cry-baby of organized religions, but the Turkish state (specially the secular military junta tha runs the show) uses these sort of thought crimes to both silence opposition, and also to pander to the right-wing factions.
- ozgune 14y ago
  This has nothing to do with the secular military. In fact, the current pro-Islamic administration has imprisoned more than 10% of the generals in the military (trial ongoing for four years); and recently started "cracking down" on liberal journalists, NGOs, artists, professors, and so forth. This trial seems to be a continuum of those crack downs.
  - makmanalp 14y ago
    This. The ongoing "Ergenekon" case is the poster child of jail without prosecution. We think you're guilty, so we'll toss you in jail. But we can't come up with your charge right now because we're in the process of writing it. But you're a flight risk so it's okay. I'm fine with people being punished for crimes but a lot of people were kept in for years before they were even charged. Some of them barely maintained their health and sanity. This is the sort of fascist-style suppression AK and Erdogan regularly engage in to make an example of people. This is not very comprehensive but okay: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergenekon_(organization)#Debate_on_Ergenekon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergenekon_(organization)#Debat... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_suspects_in_the_Ergenekon_investigation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_suspects_in_the_Ergene... Meanwhile, I get extremely angry when Erdogan and his gang enjoy hero status in the Western press because they have taken steps to allow headscarves in government institutions. They did this not because of human rights, they did it to appeal to their heavily anti-secular constituency. Never mind the Ergenekon case and other horrors that AK is part of! For a long time, he's vocally sought to increase tax on or ban alcohol, he's also suggested that everyone have multiple children, and recently his administration has spoken out against abortions, saying that he shall ban them. Whether this will happen is doubtful but I hope it sheds some light into what sort of people we're dealing with.
J3L2404 14y ago
I may hate what you say but I will fight to the death to defend your right to say it.
tigerweeds 14y ago
when did this happen? circa 1500 A.D.? oh, wait...
Tichy 14y ago
Scary, because Turkey aims to join the EU. I hope they won't be accepted as long as such things are going on. Sadly I think some countries that are dominated by radical Christians have already joined :-(
- reyan 14y ago
  I think the pro-Islamic government has clearly shifted policies after 2005 accession talks. Nevertheless Islamic fundamentalism is nothing new in Turkey [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sivas_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sivas_massacre
- coldarchon 14y ago
  They aim to join the EU? They were given 4 billion euros or the equivalent for the last 20 years to fulfill the 35 requirements to join the EU. They haven't accomplished one, are still at war with one member (Cyprus) and at cold war with another one (Greek) and instead used the money to build 6.000 mosques in Europe via DITIB.
soc88 14y ago
He's an atheist, so nothing wrong about it for those in 'MURICA.
tjic 14y ago
It can happen here. I made a joke over Twitter and the cops seized a $15k firearm collection and I racked up $15k in legal bills. No warrants, no charges, no actual investigation. Lots of tricks, lies to my lawyer, backtracking, etc. I'd love to have my day in court because the joke was taken out of context from a long discussion of Just War Theory (which was being read and enjoyed by dozens of people, including some First Ammendment lawyers), but even in the US the authorities have the ability to leave you hanging in limbo for years. Footnote: http://borepatch.blogspot.com/2011/01/i-am-tjic.html http://borepatch.blogspot.com/2011/01/i-am-tjic.html
- dr42 14y ago
  If you threaten a US senator, and you have stockpiled this many weapons, I think you really should have seen this one coming.
  - Confusion 14y ago
    He did not threaten any senator. He made a joke and argues it fits in the context of a discussion running at the time. The joke was, with respect to the shooting of Gabrielle Giffords: 1 down, 534 to go. It is absolutely, absolutely unacceptable to shoot 'indiscriminately'. Target only politicians and their staff, and leave regular citizens alone. Now you can argue this is in bad taste or, if you feel it was meant seriously, you can argue it is a reprehensible opinion, but there is no reason to arrest someone over this. If we start doing that, we can rest half the worlds population. I've made worse jokes in my life, where it was firmly obvious from the context, tone and body language that I could not possible be serious. Making jokes is a way of dealing with incomprehensible tragedies. Pure text is an unfortunate medium for such jokes, because it lacks tone and body language. People that know you may interpret it correctly; others may interpret it otherwise. Especially if taken from its narrative context. I would not like to be arrested over some joke overheard by a passing policeman who didn't understand the context and neither do I even remotely understand or accept this guy being arrested.
    - carbocation 14y ago
Aruz 14y ago
What happens when you insult the Bible? Actually the pianist is not accused of insulting Islam. Say faces charges of inciting hatred and public enmity, and insulting "religious values. http://www.todayszaman.com/news-282207-turkish-pianist-charged-with-insulting-religious-values.html http://www.todayszaman.com/news-282207-turkish-pianist-charg...
aurora72 14y ago
I'm a citizen of Turkey and in this lovely country the religion has often been used as a tool for achieving secular aims. That's just another example of it.
- asto 14y ago
  Turkey and its people look really nice on TV shows/documentaries! It sucks that your government is the way it is; anybody who values their freedom and exercises their right to free speech against anybody/anything would be too scared to visit regardless of how much they'd like to experience your culture first hand. (me included)
narzac 14y ago
Turkey is in a transition process which will turn it into an islamic piece of shit country like Iran. Secular holly crap :) From the perspective of current prime minister of Turkey Atheist = Thinner-addict
utku_karatas2 14y ago
Flagged. Every country has its own laws. News at Eleven. This guy always had provocative speeches just for the sake of being provocative and the center of attention. More debatable and provocative stuff is circulated by columnists in everyday papers. It's just this guy is a little bit more prolific and annoying. Probably some district prosecutor just took a jab.
sepeth 14y ago
There is something terribly wrong with this country! Fazil Say is not the first: http://www.cartoonistsrights.org/recent_developments_article.php?id=24 http://www.cartoonistsrights.org/recent_developments_article...
cahteinp138 14y ago
It reminds me of the Fabrice Muamba case [1]: A student has been jailed for 56 days for posting offensive comments on Twitter about the on-pitch collapse of Bolton Wanderers footballer Fabrice Muamba. District judge John Charles told Stacey: "It was racist abuse via a social networking site instigated as a result of a vile and abhorrent comment about a young footballer who was fighting for his life. At that moment, not just the footballer's family, not just the footballing world but the whole world were literally praying for his life. Your comments aggravated this situation. How can a tweet aggravate someone's medical condition beats me. [1] http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-17515992 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-17515992

63 points by ozgune 14y ago

baby 14y ago

I thought Turkey was a secular country?

bergie 14y ago
Turkey is secular by constitution, but the ruling AK party is Islamist.
asto 14y ago
Is there such a thing as a Muslim dominated country that's secular?
- ebiester 14y ago
  Think the equivalent to the Republican party in the US.
  - cglace 14y ago
    Because only the democrats have seen the light? Just because republicans pander to ensure they get votes from a certain base does not mean all republicans are fundamentalists. Some of us vote republican because there isn't a viable libertarian candidate.
    - ebiester 14y ago
      Ah, but not all AKP voters are Islamist. The similarity is that both are primarily a union of social conservatives and pro-business voters (primarily -- Libertarianism as such isn't really common in Turkey from what I've seen, and analogies are rarely perfect.) But if you don't think that the discourse in the Republican party isn't heavily influenced by Christianists... (And the two countries' opposition parties are quite different.)
- sk5t 14y ago
  The USA is a secular country, but just try running for major office as anything but Judeo-Christian...
Aruz 14y ago
Yes you right. Turkey is a secular country. And government type is republican perliamentary democracy.

hellerbarde 14y ago

Nobody has the right to never be offended. Y u no understand that, Turkey?

mahmud 14y ago

I know Islam is the cry-baby of organized religions, but the Turkish state (specially the secular military junta tha runs the show) uses these sort of thought crimes to both silence opposition, and also to pander to the right-wing factions.

ozgune 14y ago
This has nothing to do with the secular military. In fact, the current pro-Islamic administration has imprisoned more than 10% of the generals in the military (trial ongoing for four years); and recently started "cracking down" on liberal journalists, NGOs, artists, professors, and so forth. This trial seems to be a continuum of those crack downs.
- makmanalp 14y ago
  This. The ongoing "Ergenekon" case is the poster child of jail without prosecution. We think you're guilty, so we'll toss you in jail. But we can't come up with your charge right now because we're in the process of writing it. But you're a flight risk so it's okay. I'm fine with people being punished for crimes but a lot of people were kept in for years before they were even charged. Some of them barely maintained their health and sanity. This is the sort of fascist-style suppression AK and Erdogan regularly engage in to make an example of people. This is not very comprehensive but okay: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergenekon_(organization)#Debate_on_Ergenekon https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ergenekon_(organization)#Debat... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_suspects_in_the_Ergenekon_investigation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_suspects_in_the_Ergene... Meanwhile, I get extremely angry when Erdogan and his gang enjoy hero status in the Western press because they have taken steps to allow headscarves in government institutions. They did this not because of human rights, they did it to appeal to their heavily anti-secular constituency. Never mind the Ergenekon case and other horrors that AK is part of! For a long time, he's vocally sought to increase tax on or ban alcohol, he's also suggested that everyone have multiple children, and recently his administration has spoken out against abortions, saying that he shall ban them. Whether this will happen is doubtful but I hope it sheds some light into what sort of people we're dealing with.

J3L2404 14y ago

I may hate what you say but I will fight to the death to defend your right to say it.

tigerweeds 14y ago

when did this happen? circa 1500 A.D.? oh, wait...

Tichy 14y ago

Scary, because Turkey aims to join the EU. I hope they won't be accepted as long as such things are going on. Sadly I think some countries that are dominated by radical Christians have already joined :-(

reyan 14y ago
I think the pro-Islamic government has clearly shifted policies after 2005 accession talks. Nevertheless Islamic fundamentalism is nothing new in Turkey [1]. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sivas_massacre https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sivas_massacre
coldarchon 14y ago
They aim to join the EU? They were given 4 billion euros or the equivalent for the last 20 years to fulfill the 35 requirements to join the EU. They haven't accomplished one, are still at war with one member (Cyprus) and at cold war with another one (Greek) and instead used the money to build 6.000 mosques in Europe via DITIB.

soc88 14y ago

He's an atheist, so nothing wrong about it for those in 'MURICA.

tjic 14y ago

It can happen here. I made a joke over Twitter and the cops seized a $15k firearm collection and I racked up $15k in legal bills. No warrants, no charges, no actual investigation. Lots of tricks, lies to my lawyer, backtracking, etc. I'd love to have my day in court because the joke was taken out of context from a long discussion of Just War Theory (which was being read and enjoyed by dozens of people, including some First Ammendment lawyers), but even in the US the authorities have the ability to leave you hanging in limbo for years. Footnote: http://borepatch.blogspot.com/2011/01/i-am-tjic.html http://borepatch.blogspot.com/2011/01/i-am-tjic.html

dr42 14y ago
If you threaten a US senator, and you have stockpiled this many weapons, I think you really should have seen this one coming.
- Confusion 14y ago
  He did not threaten any senator. He made a joke and argues it fits in the context of a discussion running at the time. The joke was, with respect to the shooting of Gabrielle Giffords: 1 down, 534 to go. It is absolutely, absolutely unacceptable to shoot 'indiscriminately'. Target only politicians and their staff, and leave regular citizens alone. Now you can argue this is in bad taste or, if you feel it was meant seriously, you can argue it is a reprehensible opinion, but there is no reason to arrest someone over this. If we start doing that, we can rest half the worlds population. I've made worse jokes in my life, where it was firmly obvious from the context, tone and body language that I could not possible be serious. Making jokes is a way of dealing with incomprehensible tragedies. Pure text is an unfortunate medium for such jokes, because it lacks tone and body language. People that know you may interpret it correctly; others may interpret it otherwise. Especially if taken from its narrative context. I would not like to be arrested over some joke overheard by a passing policeman who didn't understand the context and neither do I even remotely understand or accept this guy being arrested.
  - carbocation 14y ago

Aruz 14y ago

What happens when you insult the Bible? Actually the pianist is not accused of insulting Islam. Say faces charges of inciting hatred and public enmity, and insulting "religious values. http://www.todayszaman.com/news-282207-turkish-pianist-charged-with-insulting-religious-values.html http://www.todayszaman.com/news-282207-turkish-pianist-charg...

aurora72 14y ago

I'm a citizen of Turkey and in this lovely country the religion has often been used as a tool for achieving secular aims. That's just another example of it.

asto 14y ago
Turkey and its people look really nice on TV shows/documentaries! It sucks that your government is the way it is; anybody who values their freedom and exercises their right to free speech against anybody/anything would be too scared to visit regardless of how much they'd like to experience your culture first hand. (me included)

narzac 14y ago

Turkey is in a transition process which will turn it into an islamic piece of shit country like Iran. Secular holly crap :) From the perspective of current prime minister of Turkey Atheist = Thinner-addict

utku_karatas2 14y ago

Flagged. Every country has its own laws. News at Eleven. This guy always had provocative speeches just for the sake of being provocative and the center of attention. More debatable and provocative stuff is circulated by columnists in everyday papers. It's just this guy is a little bit more prolific and annoying. Probably some district prosecutor just took a jab.

sepeth 14y ago

There is something terribly wrong with this country! Fazil Say is not the first: http://www.cartoonistsrights.org/recent_developments_article.php?id=24 http://www.cartoonistsrights.org/recent_developments_article...

cahteinp138 14y ago

It reminds me of the Fabrice Muamba case [1]: A student has been jailed for 56 days for posting offensive comments on Twitter about the on-pitch collapse of Bolton Wanderers footballer Fabrice Muamba. District judge John Charles told Stacey: "It was racist abuse via a social networking site instigated as a result of a vile and abhorrent comment about a young footballer who was fighting for his life. At that moment, not just the footballer's family, not just the footballing world but the whole world were literally praying for his life. Your comments aggravated this situation. How can a tweet aggravate someone's medical condition beats me. [1] http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-17515992 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-17515992