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> The abundance of small artisan coffee shops, mom-and-pop tool stores, custom furniture manufacturers, metal workers, etc. I was shocked to find out, when I or

> The abundance of small artisan coffee shops, mom-and-pop tool stores, custom furniture manufacturers, metal workers, etc. I was shocked to find out, when I ordered an office table on Rozetka (Ukraine's version of Amazon), that the seller reached out to me and asked me what height I would like the metal legs to be, But those things seem like the opposite of progress because the productivity in such an economy is very low. If anything the decreasing supply of labor and therefore increasing costs were one of the driving forces behind innovation in late Medieval Europe because investing into developing costly inventions that resulted in higher productivity became much attractive. e.g. Romans used “classrooms” full of slaves for copying manuscripts for “publishing” in contrast while literacy was seemingly increasing at a relatively fast pace in the 1400s this approach would have been prohibitively expensive (no slaves and literate people had much better opportunities so books were extremely expensive and this created a perfect environment for a printing industry to develop). > Necessity is the mother of invention I’d argue high demand and availability of capital are as important while low labor costs on their own (the reason why you find Ukraine so attractive) have the opposite effect. In the case of many developing countries/mid countries being able to export goods and services to countries with higher demand while remaining to be competitive despite of much lower (initially) productivity of course had a very positive effect (however I wouldn’t necessarily consider banking apps with very good UX to be a very good example of technological innovation, almost all bleeding edge stuff is still being developed in richer/highly developed countries and brain drain is a huge issue in Ukraine and other similarly poor countries)

_xnmw 2y ago
I don’t care whether you call it the “opposite of progress” or “less optimized” or whatever. In my experience day-to-day life is just better and everything is cheaper and more enjoyable when it is NOT highly optimized in favor of megacorps profits. Better UX apps may not be examples of bleeding edge innovation, but it is a better day to day experience. Maybe capitalism taken to the extreme is a mistake for human well being, I don’t know. I just enjoy life more here.
- ffgjgf1 2y ago
  Well yes, I certainly agree that one can enjoy a considerably higher QoL (in certain aspects at least) while spending the same amount of money in a reasonable stable country yet economically underdeveloped country. > I don’t care whether you call it the “opposite of progress” or “less optimized” or whatever I just assumed the discussion was about technological progress. OTH I do think that considerably lower costs enable encourage risk taking, certain types of experimentation and other riskier ventures that would be much harder to fund/justify in countries with considerably higher labour costs (and various regulatory barriers and associated costs that probably aren’t an issue in less economically developed countries as long as their legal/bureaucratic systems are reasonable efficient and not thoroughly corrupt). I can’t really tell whether that offsets the fact that many/most capable/talented people are likely to move elsewhere when given the opportunity > Maybe capitalism taken to the extreme is a mistake I wouldn’t say that’s the case in much (or any, depending on how we “define” capitalism). Also you’re certainly wrong about the overall “wellbeing” considering the migration/demographic trends (even before the war) in Ukraine and comparable countries. Certainly it doesn’t seem that a significant proportion of people living there are in a remotely as good position financially as you.
  - _xnmw 2y ago
    > considering the migration/demographic trends There is a large "return to Ukraine" sentiment on Ukrainian social media, even during the war. People assumed the West is better, because that's what everyone else thinks. Most people don't think critically and just go with the flow. But many realized that home was better all along. There's even a (smaller) trend of Westerners moving to Ukraine, see for example the TikToker Ellas's Ukrainian Life, a British national who moved to Ukraine and compares all of the aspects of life in the UK versus Ukraine. > I just assumed the discussion was about technological progress As a programmer, I consider better UX apps and better finance APIs "technological progress" even if it hasn't reached world-class recognition yet.

_xnmw 2y ago

I don’t care whether you call it the “opposite of progress” or “less optimized” or whatever. In my experience day-to-day life is just better and everything is cheaper and more enjoyable when it is NOT highly optimized in favor of megacorps profits. Better UX apps may not be examples of bleeding edge innovation, but it is a better day to day experience. Maybe capitalism taken to the extreme is a mistake for human well being, I don’t know. I just enjoy life more here.

ffgjgf1 2y ago
Well yes, I certainly agree that one can enjoy a considerably higher QoL (in certain aspects at least) while spending the same amount of money in a reasonable stable country yet economically underdeveloped country. > I don’t care whether you call it the “opposite of progress” or “less optimized” or whatever I just assumed the discussion was about technological progress. OTH I do think that considerably lower costs enable encourage risk taking, certain types of experimentation and other riskier ventures that would be much harder to fund/justify in countries with considerably higher labour costs (and various regulatory barriers and associated costs that probably aren’t an issue in less economically developed countries as long as their legal/bureaucratic systems are reasonable efficient and not thoroughly corrupt). I can’t really tell whether that offsets the fact that many/most capable/talented people are likely to move elsewhere when given the opportunity > Maybe capitalism taken to the extreme is a mistake I wouldn’t say that’s the case in much (or any, depending on how we “define” capitalism). Also you’re certainly wrong about the overall “wellbeing” considering the migration/demographic trends (even before the war) in Ukraine and comparable countries. Certainly it doesn’t seem that a significant proportion of people living there are in a remotely as good position financially as you.
- _xnmw 2y ago
  > considering the migration/demographic trends There is a large "return to Ukraine" sentiment on Ukrainian social media, even during the war. People assumed the West is better, because that's what everyone else thinks. Most people don't think critically and just go with the flow. But many realized that home was better all along. There's even a (smaller) trend of Westerners moving to Ukraine, see for example the TikToker Ellas's Ukrainian Life, a British national who moved to Ukraine and compares all of the aspects of life in the UK versus Ukraine. > I just assumed the discussion was about technological progress As a programmer, I consider better UX apps and better finance APIs "technological progress" even if it hasn't reached world-class recognition yet.