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because apparently it's the lack of time spent punching arcane commands into a terminal that has killed interest in computer science Uh, actually. I think

by saulrh 14y ago

because apparently it's the lack of time spent punching arcane commands into a terminal that has killed interest in computer science Uh, actually. I think that this review is well off, and it really shows here. The command line is simple. Everybody I know learned to program by writing command-line programs. I mean, seriously, int main(){printf("hello world");}. That's incredible for education. Review it as a media center or a browser and you will be disappointed.

domwood 14y ago
I sort of agree and disagree with you on the accessibility of the command line, it's definitely a lot less difficult that it was a decade ago, what with the proliferation of the internet and therefore stuff like StackOverflow, but it's still notably daunting and somewhat steep on the learning curve. Still, stuff like this is how we make it easier and more accessible.
veemjeem 14y ago
The reviewer probably isn't aware of the tech bubble too. All the madness that is facebook & instagram, were fueled by arcane commands in a terminal. I remember from the first bubble that made computer science so hot, we had history majors willing to switch to CS to learn these arcane commands.
adrianhoward 14y ago
The command line is simple. For certain definitions of "simple" :-) I'm one of the people who learned of a simple command line (although on a Sinclair ZX Spectrum - didn't have access to nice little unix boxes in my day). And of course it's a fine and good way to learn how to program. That said - I've seen a few teens take a different route. They got into MySpace. They started wanted to "tweak" things. That got them into HTML/CSS. That got them into JavaScript. That got them into coding. Or I've seen people start with hypercard back when hypercard was the biz. Or I've seen people start with Director (and later Flash) and move on from there. The other thing I saw several times back in the day when I taught development to non-dev folk was that some folk were really put off by the command line. I remember we had a course that I taught that was built around an GUI IDEish environment where folk were building a little SHRDLU type app. At the same time a subset of the course were on a "beginners C" course that was all command line driven. The C course was good and well taught - but some folk hated it, but made superb progress on the IDEish course. It was freaky to see the same people spend hours ranting about finding files and overstepping array bounds by one on one course, while successfully building basic NLP apps on another :-) Now - I like the RasPi. It's a cute box. But I'm unconvinced that it's going to make any significant difference in the number or kind of young folk who go play with development tools. I can't really picture anybody (child or parent) purchasing one of these who wouldn't already be the type to poke at a home Linux box or PC in a developerish way. With the way that cheap PCs get recycled is the price point going to be enough? It's great for hobbyist hackers - but they were already hobbyist hackers :-)
- tluyben2 14y ago
  Well the command line is simple, however it looks daunting at first. Even among non-programmers (like my wife); after they managed to get over their initial fear of 'learning all those difficult commands' and such, they start to loath GUIs for a lot of things.
  - adrianhoward 14y ago
    Well the command line is simple, however it looks daunting at first As I said - for certain definitions of "simple". For example * Looks "daunting at first" means it doesn't meet simple if you're talking about approachability or initial ease of use * Command lines if fantastic for many operations (piping is wonderful in Unix land, moving a stack of files based on a regex, etc. - all much quicker to do in command line land once you know what you're doing). So it meets simple for "easy when you know how". * Selecting and moving a set of randomly named files - probably slower than with a GUI. (Doesn't meet "simple" for tasks where you can't leverage the command line advantages much). * I really miss the pre-OS X Finder when I could have a single physical layout for my files and WIP. Made me stupidly productive.... even when I was just using my Mac as a chubby-client to my Linux box). I loath GUIs for some tasks. Love 'em for others. s/GUI/command-line/ and the same applies :-) It's just using words like "simple" without qualifiers raises my UX hackles (which are equally raised when GUI fans use words like "intuitive"). It's more nuanced than that.
- saulrh 14y ago
  All true. I considered mentioning Excel, GUI builders, HTML, and flash (I'm too young to remember hypercard) but couldn't fit it into the post without rambling. That said, nearly everybody ends up at the command line eventually. Javascript error console, learning a second language, building a daemon or a library, what have you. Having started on GUI builders myself and stalled until I moved to the command line, I think that other paradigms are good for catching new programmers' attention, but the command line is where you really learn what's going on, and you have a slightly better time if you start out there. (child or parent) The target that matters is probably the high school classroom. $35 (or $100 if you include a monitor) is small enough to be covered by a bog-standard lab fee. They can't send a desktop home with every student - too bulky, wouldn't be homogeneous, even recycles are too expensive - but you can hand them all rpis.

by saulrh 14y ago

domwood 14y ago

I sort of agree and disagree with you on the accessibility of the command line, it's definitely a lot less difficult that it was a decade ago, what with the proliferation of the internet and therefore stuff like StackOverflow, but it's still notably daunting and somewhat steep on the learning curve. Still, stuff like this is how we make it easier and more accessible.

veemjeem 14y ago

The reviewer probably isn't aware of the tech bubble too. All the madness that is facebook & instagram, were fueled by arcane commands in a terminal. I remember from the first bubble that made computer science so hot, we had history majors willing to switch to CS to learn these arcane commands.

adrianhoward 14y ago

The command line is simple. For certain definitions of "simple" :-) I'm one of the people who learned of a simple command line (although on a Sinclair ZX Spectrum - didn't have access to nice little unix boxes in my day). And of course it's a fine and good way to learn how to program. That said - I've seen a few teens take a different route. They got into MySpace. They started wanted to "tweak" things. That got them into HTML/CSS. That got them into JavaScript. That got them into coding. Or I've seen people start with hypercard back when hypercard was the biz. Or I've seen people start with Director (and later Flash) and move on from there. The other thing I saw several times back in the day when I taught development to non-dev folk was that some folk were really put off by the command line. I remember we had a course that I taught that was built around an GUI IDEish environment where folk were building a little SHRDLU type app. At the same time a subset of the course were on a "beginners C" course that was all command line driven. The C course was good and well taught - but some folk hated it, but made superb progress on the IDEish course. It was freaky to see the same people spend hours ranting about finding files and overstepping array bounds by one on one course, while successfully building basic NLP apps on another :-) Now - I like the RasPi. It's a cute box. But I'm unconvinced that it's going to make any significant difference in the number or kind of young folk who go play with development tools. I can't really picture anybody (child or parent) purchasing one of these who wouldn't already be the type to poke at a home Linux box or PC in a developerish way. With the way that cheap PCs get recycled is the price point going to be enough? It's great for hobbyist hackers - but they were already hobbyist hackers :-)

tluyben2 14y ago
Well the command line is simple, however it looks daunting at first. Even among non-programmers (like my wife); after they managed to get over their initial fear of 'learning all those difficult commands' and such, they start to loath GUIs for a lot of things.
- adrianhoward 14y ago
  Well the command line is simple, however it looks daunting at first As I said - for certain definitions of "simple". For example * Looks "daunting at first" means it doesn't meet simple if you're talking about approachability or initial ease of use * Command lines if fantastic for many operations (piping is wonderful in Unix land, moving a stack of files based on a regex, etc. - all much quicker to do in command line land once you know what you're doing). So it meets simple for "easy when you know how". * Selecting and moving a set of randomly named files - probably slower than with a GUI. (Doesn't meet "simple" for tasks where you can't leverage the command line advantages much). * I really miss the pre-OS X Finder when I could have a single physical layout for my files and WIP. Made me stupidly productive.... even when I was just using my Mac as a chubby-client to my Linux box). I loath GUIs for some tasks. Love 'em for others. s/GUI/command-line/ and the same applies :-) It's just using words like "simple" without qualifiers raises my UX hackles (which are equally raised when GUI fans use words like "intuitive"). It's more nuanced than that.
saulrh 14y ago
All true. I considered mentioning Excel, GUI builders, HTML, and flash (I'm too young to remember hypercard) but couldn't fit it into the post without rambling. That said, nearly everybody ends up at the command line eventually. Javascript error console, learning a second language, building a daemon or a library, what have you. Having started on GUI builders myself and stalled until I moved to the command line, I think that other paradigms are good for catching new programmers' attention, but the command line is where you really learn what's going on, and you have a slightly better time if you start out there. (child or parent) The target that matters is probably the high school classroom. $35 (or $100 if you include a monitor) is small enough to be covered by a bog-standard lab fee. They can't send a desktop home with every student - too bulky, wouldn't be homogeneous, even recycles are too expensive - but you can hand them all rpis.