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I have nothing against remote work, but I don’t think it’s particularly eco-friendly in the US setting: the trend in the US has been increased suburbanization (

I have nothing against remote work, but I don’t think it’s particularly eco-friendly in the US setting: the trend in the US has been increased suburbanization (and larger houses to accommodate home offices), both of which are probably worse on net for the environment that a single office building with central heating/cooling. Similarly: workers who move to the suburbs and drive to work only occasionally are still potentially driving more than they would be if they used mass transit in cities. This doesn’t necessarily apply to other countries with better land use patterns, of course.

lotsofpulp 2y ago
> workers who move to the suburbs and drive to work only occasionally are still potentially driving more than they would be if they used mass transit in cities. What?
- CalRobert 2y ago
  I used to live in the middle of Dublin and ride a bike to work. Then I got a remote job and realized I could save a fortune by moving to a rural house an hour away. But when I _did_ need to go to Dublin, I was sometimes driving instead of riding a bike (though sometimes I took the train, but I was very careful to make this an option and my neighbours would usually drive to go to Dublin)
- woodruffw 2y ago
  There’s a personal anecdote as a direct comment beneath my comment, as an example of this. To be clear: I’m not faulting people for this. But it’s an intuitive consequence of people moving their working space into their living space: having both means needing more room, which frequently means moving somewhere rural or suburban and driving more.
bee_rider 2y ago
The US trend to suburbia predates really widespread remote working, right? I wouldn’t blame remote work for it.
- woodruffw 2y ago
  Definitely. I’m not saying that remote work is to blame for suburbanization, only that it’s a new positive pressure supporting it.
JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> the trend in the US has been increased suburbanization (and larger houses to accommodate home offices) My emissions 100% went up with RW. I moved to Wyoming from New York, bought a roomy house. bought a car for the first time and fly constantly. The quality of life is great. And I still drop into the office every few months. But it’s no environmental panacea.
- lotsofpulp 2y ago
  It would have to be a society wide calculation, and I doubt the vast, vast majority of people are going from zero driving to more driving like a NYC to suburbs migrant. More likely is people going from regularly driving 60min+ per day to sit at a desk no longer doing that drive, which is a net reduction in energy usage. https://newsroom.aaa.com/2019/02/think-youre-in-your-car-more-youre-right-americans-spend-70-billion-hours-behind-the-wheel/ https://newsroom.aaa.com/2019/02/think-youre-in-your-car-mor...
  - JumpCrisscross 2y ago
    > I doubt the vast, vast majority of people are going from zero driving to more driving like a NYC > to suburbs migrant Going off property prices, it’s not negligible. (And going off labour prices, RW is clearly anti-agglomerational [1].) [1] https://econ.vt.edu/content/dam/econ_vt_edu/seminars/fall-2023/11-6-23%20Yichen%20Su%20Paper.pdf https://econ.vt.edu/content/dam/econ_vt_edu/seminars/fall-20...
  - ghaff 2y ago
    Hard to say how the numbers ultimately work out. I guess we'll have to see what the net numbers look like for large cities in a few years. Anecdotally I do see a fair number of people I know who were living in cities, in part because it was convenient to their office, who moved out--including to rural locations--once they didn't need to regularly go into an office any longer.
  - s1artibartfast 2y ago
    I think the telling metric would be be the hybrid vs full time remote composition. Even if full time rm is carbon negative, hybrid can be positive. Myself and many I know went from 10 min Daily commutes to 60+ min commutes 2-3 times a week.
gaogao 2y ago
Urban densification is definitely more eco-friendly than most suburbanization. The emissions of cars for the US is much higher than most people expect at 1.7 billion tons, while air conditioning is about 117 million tons. A/C also peak matches solar, which makes the emissions for it easier to cut. Heat is harder to get numbers on, but I also think most oversized suburban houses are in the sunbelt these days, plus I don't think a home office swings it too much from the baseline heating to keep the pipes from freezing.
jwells89 2y ago
While moving to a suburb had an increase in space as one of its boons, the primary driving force by far was housing costs. Reducing housing costs by half or more and locking that cost in by buying (no rent hikes) has dramatic effects on one’s ability to accumulate savings and work towards achieving true financial security. If I could’ve found a decent apartment in the city for the same price as my house, I likely would’ve opted for the apartment instead because being within walking distance of essentials and things to do is very compelling. Unfortunately there’s not much in US cities that can be had for the same price, and what little can isn’t pleasant to spend extended amounts of time in as one does with remote work. This doesn’t have to be a problem. In Tokyo for instance there’s plenty of suitable apartments for a decent price, especially if you’re ok with downtown being a 20m train ride away. We don’t build our cities like that, though.

lotsofpulp 2y ago

> workers who move to the suburbs and drive to work only occasionally are still potentially driving more than they would be if they used mass transit in cities. What?

CalRobert 2y ago
I used to live in the middle of Dublin and ride a bike to work. Then I got a remote job and realized I could save a fortune by moving to a rural house an hour away. But when I _did_ need to go to Dublin, I was sometimes driving instead of riding a bike (though sometimes I took the train, but I was very careful to make this an option and my neighbours would usually drive to go to Dublin)
woodruffw 2y ago
There’s a personal anecdote as a direct comment beneath my comment, as an example of this. To be clear: I’m not faulting people for this. But it’s an intuitive consequence of people moving their working space into their living space: having both means needing more room, which frequently means moving somewhere rural or suburban and driving more.

bee_rider 2y ago

The US trend to suburbia predates really widespread remote working, right? I wouldn’t blame remote work for it.

woodruffw 2y ago
Definitely. I’m not saying that remote work is to blame for suburbanization, only that it’s a new positive pressure supporting it.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

> the trend in the US has been increased suburbanization (and larger houses to accommodate home offices) My emissions 100% went up with RW. I moved to Wyoming from New York, bought a roomy house. bought a car for the first time and fly constantly. The quality of life is great. And I still drop into the office every few months. But it’s no environmental panacea.

lotsofpulp 2y ago
It would have to be a society wide calculation, and I doubt the vast, vast majority of people are going from zero driving to more driving like a NYC to suburbs migrant. More likely is people going from regularly driving 60min+ per day to sit at a desk no longer doing that drive, which is a net reduction in energy usage. https://newsroom.aaa.com/2019/02/think-youre-in-your-car-more-youre-right-americans-spend-70-billion-hours-behind-the-wheel/ https://newsroom.aaa.com/2019/02/think-youre-in-your-car-mor...
- JumpCrisscross 2y ago
  > I doubt the vast, vast majority of people are going from zero driving to more driving like a NYC > to suburbs migrant Going off property prices, it’s not negligible. (And going off labour prices, RW is clearly anti-agglomerational [1].) [1] https://econ.vt.edu/content/dam/econ_vt_edu/seminars/fall-2023/11-6-23%20Yichen%20Su%20Paper.pdf https://econ.vt.edu/content/dam/econ_vt_edu/seminars/fall-20...
- ghaff 2y ago
  Hard to say how the numbers ultimately work out. I guess we'll have to see what the net numbers look like for large cities in a few years. Anecdotally I do see a fair number of people I know who were living in cities, in part because it was convenient to their office, who moved out--including to rural locations--once they didn't need to regularly go into an office any longer.
- s1artibartfast 2y ago
  I think the telling metric would be be the hybrid vs full time remote composition. Even if full time rm is carbon negative, hybrid can be positive. Myself and many I know went from 10 min Daily commutes to 60+ min commutes 2-3 times a week.

gaogao 2y ago

Urban densification is definitely more eco-friendly than most suburbanization. The emissions of cars for the US is much higher than most people expect at 1.7 billion tons, while air conditioning is about 117 million tons. A/C also peak matches solar, which makes the emissions for it easier to cut. Heat is harder to get numbers on, but I also think most oversized suburban houses are in the sunbelt these days, plus I don't think a home office swings it too much from the baseline heating to keep the pipes from freezing.

jwells89 2y ago

While moving to a suburb had an increase in space as one of its boons, the primary driving force by far was housing costs. Reducing housing costs by half or more and locking that cost in by buying (no rent hikes) has dramatic effects on one’s ability to accumulate savings and work towards achieving true financial security. If I could’ve found a decent apartment in the city for the same price as my house, I likely would’ve opted for the apartment instead because being within walking distance of essentials and things to do is very compelling. Unfortunately there’s not much in US cities that can be had for the same price, and what little can isn’t pleasant to spend extended amounts of time in as one does with remote work. This doesn’t have to be a problem. In Tokyo for instance there’s plenty of suitable apartments for a decent price, especially if you’re ok with downtown being a 20m train ride away. We don’t build our cities like that, though.