4 ms·

More user hostility. Less user choice. I remember a few years ago on here everyone crowing about the new Microsoft and how it wasn't like the old one. It's not

by cjk2 2y ago

More user hostility. Less user choice. I remember a few years ago on here everyone crowing about the new Microsoft and how it wasn't like the old one. It's notably worse a this point.

simiones 2y ago
Honestly I think both things are true: the consumer apps division of MS is more open and is being allowed to follow the money, even to other OSs. The Windows division is doubling down on all of the worse practices that the law allows them to try to extract some more value from their users. Thankfully the EU has forced them to curb some of these practices, even if the process is still intentioanlly obtuse. For example, you can't upgrade to an EU version of Windows if you didn't start with one - you have to reinstall Windows from scratch, without preserving any other user settings, and choose an EU country as your locale at this step. Only then do you get to uninstall Edge and no longer need to manually opt-out of all their tracking crap. I'm sure they've still kept a lot of illegal tracking around for now too, though I'm hopeful that in time they'll be forced to remove even that.
- cjk2 2y ago
  I would rather hope the vendor has the right policy, not that a multi-national union forces it to have the right policy.
  - simiones 2y ago
    Unfortunately many people, in particular the leaders of industry in the USA, believe essentially the opposite: that any company almost has a duty to extract as much profit as legally possible, or even beyond, assuming profit > fines.
cageface 2y ago
I’m very uncomfortable with the degree to which I’ve become dependent on VSCode, GitHub, and Typescript. Microsoft has the same incentives to exploit their users now that they always have.
- cjk2 2y ago
  I've purposely avoided all three of those for that very reason. I've spent 30 years working with Microsoft stacks. It paid the mortgage off but it's been hell from a churn and lock in perspective. So much ROI was wasted on rewrites because of their policies and schizophrenic direction changes. I'm in a different space now and I am blessed that my editor is vim, my language is either Go or Julia and my VCS is Fossil.
  - neonsunset 2y ago
    > Go Funny. Great choice! Almost makes one believe the company behind it is not the biggest driver of AdTech in the world, whose business model is built entirely on selling user data, and that company also has propensity to kill much beloved and heavily used projects no matter how ridiculous the move is.
- baq 2y ago
  Fortunately I think we're good here given how MS org chart[0] looks like. [0] https://i.imgur.com/XLuaF0h.png https://i.imgur.com/XLuaF0h.png
- lioeters 2y ago
  > VSCode, GitHub, and Typescript So true. Majority of my time on the computer is dominated by these, and I'm not comfortable they're all owned by Microsoft. I don't see how they could ruin a programming language, but a code editor and centralized code repository.. Especially the latter, I'm surprised how long it's been since the acquisition and so far it's been mostly unaffected by the inevitable enshittification. The only thing that will incentivize Microsoft from ruining these admittedly great products is the existence of viable alternatives. Same with Windows, minus the great part.
chrisandchris 2y ago
I wonder when Europe starts to stop this and also forces Microsoft to stop users from the hard requirement for an online account. It's about time. I mean, they could make a ton of money by charging users for Windows without tracking/online accounts/bloatware.
- alkonaut 2y ago
  I'm guessing that selling OS:es to consumers isn't making a ton of money. Most would come as OEM for a small Windows tax on a new computer. The money is in AppStores, OneDrive subscriptions, Office 356 subs and so on. And letting people run some sort of no-frills windows where you login as a local account and run your old spreadsheet for 10 years is completely at odds with any kind of strategy that will make money from home users. I don't like it - but I'm also not disagreeing with the beancounters at ms if this is the conclusion they reached. I have a feeling it's the right call.
  - chrisandchris 2y ago
    I'm not saying that MS shouldn't sell M365 or similar. The thibgs you mentioned are not exclusive to my issue. I would be willing to pay for an OS that has no Candy Crush, LinkedIn and whatever installed and that would allow to use local accounts. I also don't want forced reboots because of updates. Yet, I still would use OneDrive, M365, ... It's currently possible to to run your Office 2010 on Win 10/11, there's nothing holding you back.
    - alkonaut 2y ago
      > I would be willing to pay for an OS that has no Candy Crush, LinkedIn and whatever installed and that would allow to use local accounts. Me too. But I do agree with the beancounters at MS that putting such an OS on the market might reduce sales of store apps or O365 subscriptions or make it less convenient for people to use OneDrive backup etc - in a way that costs them more than they would make from selling this great version of Windows to very few enthusiasts. Btw I think there are lots of differences between getting a good LTSC install now, vs if you have an OEM Home version of Win 11. A lot of my complaints only apply to the "bad" SKU's of Windows and not generally. The problem is of course that you can't buy this "good windows 11". It's reserved for volume license customers.
HeckFeck 2y ago
The only thing I can praise is the .NET Core ecosystem. C#, ASP.NET and EF is very comfy for web dev compared to my experiences with Java and its thousand moving parts. That said, I still fear what may come. The decrees from on high concocted by the unscrupulous bugmen that are breathing absolute contempt for their users. Who can ponder their designs while maintaining his conscience?
- ptx 2y ago
  .NET Core would be great if it weren't tainted by the New Microsoft policy of turning all tools into spyware. Now you have to remember to set DOTNET_CLI_TELEMETRY_OPTOUT=1 everywhere and meticulously ensure that it doesn't get stripped from the environment when launching subprocesses, changing users, etc.
  - cjk2 2y ago
    I remember the discussion about that which boiled down to: it’s good for you - shut up. That was the thing that kicked me over the fence. Open source doesn’t matter if the stewards do not have your best interests at heart.
  - neonsunset 2y ago
    The list of what is gathered: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/core/tools/telemetry https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/core/tools/telemetr... As you can see, it is system data and basic crash reporting, something that helps with the health of .NET ecosystem and has no monetary value.
    - ptx 2y ago
      They used to gather all command line arguments until they later decided that (oops!) it's "not acceptable per our privacy policies"[0] and they really shouldn't have been doing that. They have also had issues with anonymization not being implemented properly, the opt-out mechanism not working in some edge cases, forgetting to even tell users about the need to opt out, and who knows what else. The risk of accidentally exfiltrating your data one way or another seems pretty high. Also, monetary value is not the only reason you might want to keep information private. [0] https://github.com/dotnet/sdk/issues/6145#issuecomment-220105007 https://github.com/dotnet/sdk/issues/6145#issuecomment-22010...
alkonaut 2y ago
Microsoft is famously a handful of very different and very large companies who don't seem to speak. The DevDiv part is a lot different now than 20 years (or even 10) ago. The other sides of Microsoft are mostly the same as they always were. Microsofts OS division have bet everything on the strategy that "enthusiasts" aren't going to run Windows anyway. It's a segment they never cared about, and nothing indicates they ever will. I don't agree with the strategy (because it's these enthusiasts who recommend things to everyone around them and of course fix their parents machines every Christmas since the 90s), but I'm going to guess that more clever people than me have run the numbers and reached the conclusion that it's better to alienate our 10% of the Windows user base while catering only to enterprises and the non-tech-savvy users who are actually likely to buy the subscription recommended on the start menu. We weren't going to do that anyway now were we?
- cjk2 2y ago
  I don’t agree with this. You can run macOS without this crap so why can’t you run windows without it? macOS is arguably less enthusiast oriented than windows. Microsoft is one facade regardless of who is underneath it and they are aligned in user hostility at the moment. Even devdiv is a mess.
  - alkonaut 2y ago
    > You can run macOS without this crap so why can’t you run windows without it? MacOS is a service tied to selling an expensive piece of hardware. They don't need to make money by selling MacOS, they make money selling the Mac. Microsoft makes money selling Enterprise Windows licenses, Office subscriptions, OneDrive subscriptions, AppStore cuts etc. But they let Acer put an OEM copy of Win11 Home edition with very little markup because it's likely that these customers will a) ensure thir employers keep running windows because everyone knows it and b) they are likely to buy a OneDrive/Office365/whatever subscription. > Even devdiv is a mess. How so?
- pcdoodle 2y ago
  This is a very good point. A lot of purchases in tech are recommended from a friend or family member. From 95 - Windows 7, I could talk grandma through her problems without even being near a computer. Now the start menu can't even search properly.
JeremyNT 2y ago
> I remember a few years ago on here everyone crowing about the new Microsoft and how it wasn't like the old one. People here still do this, despite all evidence to the contrary! I have concluded that a large percentage of hn users simply work at Microsoft or one of its subsidiaries (eg GitHub).

by cjk2 2y ago

More user hostility. Less user choice. I remember a few years ago on here everyone crowing about the new Microsoft and how it wasn't like the old one. It's notably worse a this point.

simiones 2y ago

Honestly I think both things are true: the consumer apps division of MS is more open and is being allowed to follow the money, even to other OSs. The Windows division is doubling down on all of the worse practices that the law allows them to try to extract some more value from their users. Thankfully the EU has forced them to curb some of these practices, even if the process is still intentioanlly obtuse. For example, you can't upgrade to an EU version of Windows if you didn't start with one - you have to reinstall Windows from scratch, without preserving any other user settings, and choose an EU country as your locale at this step. Only then do you get to uninstall Edge and no longer need to manually opt-out of all their tracking crap. I'm sure they've still kept a lot of illegal tracking around for now too, though I'm hopeful that in time they'll be forced to remove even that.

cjk2 2y ago
I would rather hope the vendor has the right policy, not that a multi-national union forces it to have the right policy.
- simiones 2y ago
  Unfortunately many people, in particular the leaders of industry in the USA, believe essentially the opposite: that any company almost has a duty to extract as much profit as legally possible, or even beyond, assuming profit > fines.

cageface 2y ago

I’m very uncomfortable with the degree to which I’ve become dependent on VSCode, GitHub, and Typescript. Microsoft has the same incentives to exploit their users now that they always have.

cjk2 2y ago
I've purposely avoided all three of those for that very reason. I've spent 30 years working with Microsoft stacks. It paid the mortgage off but it's been hell from a churn and lock in perspective. So much ROI was wasted on rewrites because of their policies and schizophrenic direction changes. I'm in a different space now and I am blessed that my editor is vim, my language is either Go or Julia and my VCS is Fossil.
- neonsunset 2y ago
  > Go Funny. Great choice! Almost makes one believe the company behind it is not the biggest driver of AdTech in the world, whose business model is built entirely on selling user data, and that company also has propensity to kill much beloved and heavily used projects no matter how ridiculous the move is.
baq 2y ago
Fortunately I think we're good here given how MS org chart[0] looks like. [0] https://i.imgur.com/XLuaF0h.png https://i.imgur.com/XLuaF0h.png
lioeters 2y ago
> VSCode, GitHub, and Typescript So true. Majority of my time on the computer is dominated by these, and I'm not comfortable they're all owned by Microsoft. I don't see how they could ruin a programming language, but a code editor and centralized code repository.. Especially the latter, I'm surprised how long it's been since the acquisition and so far it's been mostly unaffected by the inevitable enshittification. The only thing that will incentivize Microsoft from ruining these admittedly great products is the existence of viable alternatives. Same with Windows, minus the great part.

chrisandchris 2y ago

I wonder when Europe starts to stop this and also forces Microsoft to stop users from the hard requirement for an online account. It's about time. I mean, they could make a ton of money by charging users for Windows without tracking/online accounts/bloatware.

alkonaut 2y ago
I'm guessing that selling OS:es to consumers isn't making a ton of money. Most would come as OEM for a small Windows tax on a new computer. The money is in AppStores, OneDrive subscriptions, Office 356 subs and so on. And letting people run some sort of no-frills windows where you login as a local account and run your old spreadsheet for 10 years is completely at odds with any kind of strategy that will make money from home users. I don't like it - but I'm also not disagreeing with the beancounters at ms if this is the conclusion they reached. I have a feeling it's the right call.
- chrisandchris 2y ago
  I'm not saying that MS shouldn't sell M365 or similar. The thibgs you mentioned are not exclusive to my issue. I would be willing to pay for an OS that has no Candy Crush, LinkedIn and whatever installed and that would allow to use local accounts. I also don't want forced reboots because of updates. Yet, I still would use OneDrive, M365, ... It's currently possible to to run your Office 2010 on Win 10/11, there's nothing holding you back.
  - alkonaut 2y ago
    > I would be willing to pay for an OS that has no Candy Crush, LinkedIn and whatever installed and that would allow to use local accounts. Me too. But I do agree with the beancounters at MS that putting such an OS on the market might reduce sales of store apps or O365 subscriptions or make it less convenient for people to use OneDrive backup etc - in a way that costs them more than they would make from selling this great version of Windows to very few enthusiasts. Btw I think there are lots of differences between getting a good LTSC install now, vs if you have an OEM Home version of Win 11. A lot of my complaints only apply to the "bad" SKU's of Windows and not generally. The problem is of course that you can't buy this "good windows 11". It's reserved for volume license customers.

HeckFeck 2y ago

The only thing I can praise is the .NET Core ecosystem. C#, ASP.NET and EF is very comfy for web dev compared to my experiences with Java and its thousand moving parts. That said, I still fear what may come. The decrees from on high concocted by the unscrupulous bugmen that are breathing absolute contempt for their users. Who can ponder their designs while maintaining his conscience?

ptx 2y ago
.NET Core would be great if it weren't tainted by the New Microsoft policy of turning all tools into spyware. Now you have to remember to set DOTNET_CLI_TELEMETRY_OPTOUT=1 everywhere and meticulously ensure that it doesn't get stripped from the environment when launching subprocesses, changing users, etc.
- cjk2 2y ago
  I remember the discussion about that which boiled down to: it’s good for you - shut up. That was the thing that kicked me over the fence. Open source doesn’t matter if the stewards do not have your best interests at heart.
- neonsunset 2y ago
  The list of what is gathered: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/core/tools/telemetry https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/core/tools/telemetr... As you can see, it is system data and basic crash reporting, something that helps with the health of .NET ecosystem and has no monetary value.
  - ptx 2y ago
    They used to gather all command line arguments until they later decided that (oops!) it's "not acceptable per our privacy policies"[0] and they really shouldn't have been doing that. They have also had issues with anonymization not being implemented properly, the opt-out mechanism not working in some edge cases, forgetting to even tell users about the need to opt out, and who knows what else. The risk of accidentally exfiltrating your data one way or another seems pretty high. Also, monetary value is not the only reason you might want to keep information private. [0] https://github.com/dotnet/sdk/issues/6145#issuecomment-220105007 https://github.com/dotnet/sdk/issues/6145#issuecomment-22010...

alkonaut 2y ago

Microsoft is famously a handful of very different and very large companies who don't seem to speak. The DevDiv part is a lot different now than 20 years (or even 10) ago. The other sides of Microsoft are mostly the same as they always were. Microsofts OS division have bet everything on the strategy that "enthusiasts" aren't going to run Windows anyway. It's a segment they never cared about, and nothing indicates they ever will. I don't agree with the strategy (because it's these enthusiasts who recommend things to everyone around them and of course fix their parents machines every Christmas since the 90s), but I'm going to guess that more clever people than me have run the numbers and reached the conclusion that it's better to alienate our 10% of the Windows user base while catering only to enterprises and the non-tech-savvy users who are actually likely to buy the subscription recommended on the start menu. We weren't going to do that anyway now were we?

cjk2 2y ago
I don’t agree with this. You can run macOS without this crap so why can’t you run windows without it? macOS is arguably less enthusiast oriented than windows. Microsoft is one facade regardless of who is underneath it and they are aligned in user hostility at the moment. Even devdiv is a mess.
- alkonaut 2y ago
  > You can run macOS without this crap so why can’t you run windows without it? MacOS is a service tied to selling an expensive piece of hardware. They don't need to make money by selling MacOS, they make money selling the Mac. Microsoft makes money selling Enterprise Windows licenses, Office subscriptions, OneDrive subscriptions, AppStore cuts etc. But they let Acer put an OEM copy of Win11 Home edition with very little markup because it's likely that these customers will a) ensure thir employers keep running windows because everyone knows it and b) they are likely to buy a OneDrive/Office365/whatever subscription. > Even devdiv is a mess. How so?
pcdoodle 2y ago
This is a very good point. A lot of purchases in tech are recommended from a friend or family member. From 95 - Windows 7, I could talk grandma through her problems without even being near a computer. Now the start menu can't even search properly.

JeremyNT 2y ago

> I remember a few years ago on here everyone crowing about the new Microsoft and how it wasn't like the old one. People here still do this, despite all evidence to the contrary! I have concluded that a large percentage of hn users simply work at Microsoft or one of its subsidiaries (eg GitHub).