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Don't be terrified of Pale Fire
- johngossman 2y agoRecently read “Pale Fire” for the first time. It’s insanely good. Another review I read made the comment “Nabokov spoils you for other books.” It’s funny, with beautiful sentences, engaging, and the overall format is a welcome break from the normal narrative form.
- block_dagger 2y agoI was excited to read Pale Fire after reading what I consider to be one of the finest novels ever written, Lolita. The protagonist is a monster, but the writing is so eloquent - and not even in the author's original tongue! Pale Fire was simply boring to me. I am not extremely literary, so a lot of it probably went over my head, but I was rather disappointed it didn't shine like his 1955 masterpiece.
- hyperadvanced 2y agoI had gone through this on first reading of Pale Fire. Had to come back to it. Was worth it given how short and good PF is.
- barrkel 2y agoTo be fair, he spoke English from a very young age, he was raised trilingual and read and wrote English before Russian. I think there's a case to be made that being able to read 3 distinct languages with native fluency contributed to his lexical dexterity and mastery of metaphorical imagery.
- therealdrag0 2y agoSame. I also found myself thinking “wait he can’t be serious about this poetry it’s not good”. And upon googling found that readers are split many many people think the poetry is seriously good.
- vessenes 2y agoWhile I don't think you need to be 'extremely literary' to enjoy it, Pale Fire is strong stuff, and challenging in surprising ways -- as the linked review expounds on, at some length. Lolita is probably Nabokov's most accessible book, or at least the most accessible of his I've read, but I bet part of what you liked there is that you, the reader, don't interact with Humbert Humbert in quite the same way that Humbert thinks about himself, or might expect you would interact with him. Nabokov is profoundly good at this sort of authorial/editorial/linguistic misdirection. On those terms, Pale Fire is a sort of 3d chess version of Lolita. Obviously the topic is different, at least, the surface topic is different. Obsession is still very much a topic. Anyway, you might enjoy reading more Nabokov! Don't give up on him! To my mind he's one of the literary gifts from the 20th century. And you might enjoy Pale Fire on a re-read, but I'd recommend something else by him (or a few palate-cleansing/getting deeper on the Nabokov vibe choices) if it left you cold. It left me a little cold, too. I've been re-reading Ada or Ardor recently which I'd say is really outstanding, if longer and more florid than Lolita.
- vasilipupkin 2y agoSpeak, Memory is extremely accessible, easy to understand and the finest peace of writing I have ever come across.
- zabzonk 2y agoit is so funny, and the poem is great. it is short, and easy to read. have at it!
- oraknabo 2y agoPale Fire is, without a doubt, my favorite thing Nabakov ever wrote. I've been through it at least 5 times but I don't feel as if I've ever fully read it cover-to-cover like other novels. It's just a rough draft of an epic poem (of specious quality) and a bunch of publisher's notes, but it's always intriguing and surprisingly funny.
- The_Blade 2y agoIt is sandwiched between Pnin and Speak, Memory But I really love Invitation to a Beheading. he wrote in three languages!
- acabal 2y agoPale Fire has been my favorite book for a long, long time, ever since I read it as part of a course in university. After all these years I haven't read a better, more intricately-constructed book. It was suggested to me to read the intro first, then skip the poem and read the endnotes start to finish, then to go back and read the poem. The index is part of the fiction and must also be read. I think the keys to really enjoying Pale Fire are 1) to realize that while the subject matter is ostensibly serious, Kinbote is really a comic figure, and you're meant to be laughing a lot of the time; and 2) the great puzzles to unravel are who is John Shade, who is Charles Kinbote, are any of them even real, and who wrote the poem? The book is so beautifully written that it can be argued that none of those questions have definitive answers - and thinking about them, and how Nabokov threads clues and possibilities throughout the novel, without any of them seeming to be contradictory, is the pleasure.
- zem 2y ago> It was suggested to me to read the endnotes first, start to finish, then to go back and read the poem. I read it with two copies open, so that I was reading the poem and the endnotes in parallel.
- dbtc 2y agoThe original alt-tab is flipping between pointer fingers in a book.
- erikerikson 2y agoThe original dual screens is two copies. Seriously though, there is greater cognitive overhead in alt-tab than side-by-side
- block_dagger 2y agoThere is less muscle movement in the neck, and therefore less strain, with alt-tab.
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- haroldp 2y agoIf you are going to read Pale Fire, get it on paper. I tried to read it on my Kindle and the UI is not up to task of lots of flipping back and forth between the poem and the prose sections.
- oraknabo 2y agoI can't imagine trying to manage this on an e-reader. If the notes popped up in a window over the text it would be an ideal way to experience the book, but every epub reader I've ever used makes jumping around a pain and I have a really hard time even hitting the index links on a touchscreen.
- vundercind 2y agoWhen I tell people the UI of paper books is in most ways superior to ebook readers, this is the kind of thing I mean. They do take up a shitload less space, which is a pretty big advantage, though.
- haroldp 2y agoI would disagree strongly with this. :) The e-reader UI is generally so much better than paper, if a book is not available for kindle, I'll usually find something else to read. Pale Fire is a special case book where you want two have bookmarks where you are currently working. I read Chuck Palahniuk's Diary on paper, and an e-reader would definitely have ruined it. Technical books with a lot of charts, diagrams, monospaced code examples, etc can highlight the weaknesses of e-readers. PDFs are almost always better on a tablet. But for like, words-in-a-row novels that don't mind being re-wrapped, there is no comparison, for me. e-Reader every time.
- vundercind 2y agoYes, they are fine for books with no features but body text and no important formatting or layout, and that the reader progresses through entirely linearly. Those are the sorts of books they’re best-suited to.
- seanhunter 2y agoPale fire is a great book, beautifully written and not particularly hard to read. Strongly recommend it.
- adolph 2y agoInteresting: The connection between Pale Fire and hypertext was stated soon after its publication; in 1969, the information-technology researcher Ted Nelson obtained permission from the novel's publishers to use it for a hypertext demonstration at Brown University. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pale_Fire https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pale_Fire
- cxr 2y agohttps://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23491587 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23491587
- recursive 2y agoFunny to think that we're this far into the "information era", and your choices for consuming this book are either physical paper, or general (non-hypermedia) ebook.
- adolph 2y agoOnce upon a time people thought hypermedia solved some problem of publishing but didn't realize IP was the real hurdle (until OpenAI etc "solved" that by embedding the novels in NLP token weights).
- nicwolff 2y ago[flagged]
- teraflop 2y agoAccording to the Cambridge English Dictionary: > refrain, n. a short part of a song or poem that is repeated, esp. at the end of each longer part, or any phrase that is often repeated Verbing nouns is a very common feature of the English language.
- js2 2y agoThat's true but in this case the noun and verb forms of refrain have distinct meanings and come into English from different sources: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/refrain#word-history https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/refrain#word-hist... It's don't think I've ever read refrained used this way. I wonder if she was thinking "reframed"?
- edflsafoiewq 2y ago
- Fezzik 2y agoI love seeing anything Nabokov related pop-up here; all of his books are lessons in how powerful fictional characters can be when crafted well. Read all of his books as soon as you can!
- gwbas1c 2y agoIs this a "Bookworm's book?" Much like a "skier's mountain" or a "band's band," is this the kind of book that only appeals to a narrow audience that likes to pick apart the mechanics of a book? Or is this a book like Harry Potter, which was panned by the critics, but otherwise is awesome popular fiction?
- Tycho 2y agoThe 'hook' of Pale Fire is this: ostensibly you're reading a long-form poem with a foreword and footnotes and editing by a friend of the poet (a poet of some eminence), but it soon becomes apparent that the editor is trying to jam his own life story into those footnotes. If you like that idea, I think you'd like the book.
- waveBidder 2y agoah, so the same genre as House of Leaves
- derbOac 2y agoYeah, strangely enough I never connected Pale Fire to House of Leaves until this article and thread. Puts a slightly different spin on House of Leaves for me.
- vundercind 2y agoOther books I know of that play with part or all of the text itself being an artifact of the fiction: - The Third Policeman, Flann O’Brian. Fictional scholar of a fictional esoteric philosopher weaves his commentary on same philosopher into an account of his… journey. - If on a Winter’s Night a Traveler, Italo Calvino. You(!) embark on an adventure to find the book you believed you purchased, which was If on a Winter’s Night a Traveler by Italo Calvino. - The Princess Bride, William Goldman. This has a very different framing narrative from the film, and is very much worth a read. (Setting aside epistolary novels like Dracula)
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- OldGuyInTheClub 2y agoIt's a good book that I've read a couple of times but a tiring one. Nabokov puts so many traps and misdirections in it that it becomes a cryptic crossword in a distant language. He is a very smart and clever guy and never tires of reminding the reader of it. He lampoons academia while enabling many an academic career in the process. There are professors aplenty specializing in Nabokov and some in Pale Fire itself. For s&g I read "Nabokov's Pale Fire : The Magic of Artistic Discovery" by Brian Boyd, one of the aforementioned. It was interesting at first to see how literary criticsm and analysis work but eventually I had a Shatner moment.
- jjtheblunt 2y agoShatner moment?
- OldGuyInTheClub 2y agoSaturday Night Live sketch circa 1986. He's at a Star Trek convention in a small town and finally snaps at the trivia-mad, stalkerish fans telling them to "Get life, will you people?!"
- jjtheblunt 2y agoWe must be similar ages; i just happened not to see that one. Thanks
- dreamcompiler 2y agoClassic. https://trekmovie.com/2021/09/06/william-shatner-defends-1986-get-a-life-snl-skit-after-criticism-from-rod-roddenberry/ https://trekmovie.com/2021/09/06/william-shatner-defends-198...
- glial 2y agoI have not yet read Pale Fire, but I loved Lolita and hope to read it soon. Nabokov's writing is so rich, the writing itself (aside from the story!) is worth lingering over and savoring. I've only found a few other writers with a similar quality - Proust, Milton, perhaps Cormac McCarthy and Toni Morrison. Does anyone know of authors with a similar property? I'm not even sure what to call it, so it's difficult to search for.
- habosa 2y agoEast of Eden by John Steinbeck is at the top of my list for pure literary beauty (and I also love most of the authors you mentioned)
- vundercind 2y agoFaulkner. Woolf, though more in some books than others.
- atombender 2y agoI would check out John Crowley, starting with Little, Big. One of the great American prose stylists. Hilary Mantel is very good. I haven't read the Wolf Hall books, but A Place of Greater Safety is beautiful and deserves to be better known. I would also nominate Gene Wolfe, especially The Book of the Sun. Fits very well with the subject matter of Nabokov, as it is also a clever metatextual puzzle, albeit a very different kind.
- hawthorned7 2y ago[dead]
- therealdrag0 2y agoYou can hang out in /r/proseporn to get samples. I’d recommend “All the kings men” by Robert Penn Warren. It sounds like a political book but it’s not. It’s more like The Great Gatsby in that the structure is as much about the narrator. Also the writing lapses into “overly poetic” like McCarthy.
- leephillips 2y agoLook into Marc Leyner, especially the novel Et Tu, Babe and anything he wrote before that. He specifically set out to create prose where each sentence could stand alone as something beautiful. I think he’s not often taken seriously because he’s simply so extremely funny that he gets pigeonholed as a comic writer. But as his best he crafted English prose at the highest level.
- _virtu 2y agoThis is hilarious. I bought the book after watching Blade Runner 2049. There's a scene where some of book was being recited as part of the protagonist's anti-empathy test and I figured it had to have a deeper importance to the writers so I grabbed it on a whim. It's been sitting on my shelf. Now I'll have to move it up the list after seeing this.
- dilyevsky 2y agoThe book is also in the film - joi offers to read it to k in their first scene I think. Another cool reference there is K’s ringtone is Prokofiev’s Peter and the Wolf which every soviet kid should recognize from their childhood
- 8f2ab37a-ed6c 2y agoSpecifically the David Bowie version from 1978
- easyKL 2y agoYou might enjoy this video: _Blade Runner 2049 | "Cells Interlinked" and Pale Fire (LITERALLY ME! INCELS INTERLINKED)_ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtLvtMqWNz8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtLvtMqWNz8
- _virtu 2y agoI watched it. Thank you for the recommendation. Sounds absolutely fascinating. I just started the second Hyperion book, but I might have to put it down to prioritize this. It does seem like somewhat of an investment though; as if reading it in bed might not be the most optimal way to enjoy the experience. It might require some more dedicated reading sessions from what I'm seeing in the other threads.
- ajkjk 2y agowell putting down Fall of Hyperion would also be a mistake.
- zvrba 2y agoHah, have learned about the book while searching for the text that androids repeat during their "evaluation" in Blade Runner 2.
- gizmo 2y agoWhen people recommend Russian literature I'm always curious what they think about the other great Russian literary works. Because I find unnecessary complexity unbearable. I have no desire to read literature with 100+ named characters, unreliable narrators and Escher-like chronology. For some people narrative complexity is a draw but if I can't put a book down and come back to it two weeks later without having to start from the beginning it's just not for me.
- CydeWeys 2y agoAdmittedly The Brothers Karamazov has a lot of characters, but, it does run linearly! And it's not so hard to refer to the Wikipedia article for a character list as necessary. I think the problem is some people expect to not have to do any work when reading literary novels.
- gizmo 2y agoI find that literature that requires work does not provide more food or insight into the human condition or a sense of wonder (or whichever benchmark you choose) than simpler and more accessible works. If complexity is not what makes the work valuable, what purpose does it serve? I posit that for some people complexity for the sake of complexity _is_ the appeal.
- mykowebhn 2y agoI just wanted to point out the logical gymnastics you just performed here: I find it true, thus it is true universally. Your initial premise: "I find that literature that requires work does not provide more food or insight into the human condition..." Your conclusion from this premise: "If complexity is not what makes the work valuable, what purpose does it serve?" And you answer your own question with a cynical take: "I posit that for some people complexity for the sake of complexity _is_ the appeal." This makes me want to kick myself for reading Hacker News to be illuminated about the arts. Still, I love user lermontov!
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- Boogie_Man 2y ago"I am the shadow of the waxwing slain By the false azure in the windowpane I am the smudge of ashen fluff And I lived on, flew on, in the reflected sky" I am ashamed that I will never command my native language as well as a man for whom it was a second. I don't even know if whom is right there.
- OldGuyInTheClub 2y agoI think it was his third after Russian and French. I liked "The svelte stilettos of a frozen stillicide" and "How to locate in blackness, with a gasp, Terra the Fair, an orbicle of jasp."
- edflsafoiewq 2y agoNabokov's family was trilingual and he could read and write English before he could Russian. It wasn't really a second language to him.
- leephillips 2y agoYou destroyed this by altering the linebreaking. And it’s misquoted in other ways.
- Boogie_Man 2y agoYou're not wrong, but it was from memory. I invite you to look it up and post the correct version.
- Boogie_Man 2y agoHere's what appears to be the exact quote from an article: I was the shadow of the waxwing slain By the false azure in the windowpane; I was the smudge of ashen fluff—and I Lived on, flew on, in the reflected sky. I think I did alright for recalling it from several years ago. I will in fact, retract my agreement and classify your criticism as overly harsh.
- debo_ 2y ago"Ada or Ardor" is my favorite book that I didn't understand.
- hristov 2y agoTell me about it. I think it was on the second reading that i figured out it was supposed to be alternate reality science fiction. In the beginning I started reading it because it had footnotes, naively thinking that the footnotes would explain all the bizarre nabakoivsms. Quarter in the way in i was like “these are the worst footnotes ever, they do not explain anything but make things even more bewildering; and why, when the novels characters switch between four languages, dont the footnotes provide translations, at least”. I looked in the back to see who wrote these footnotes, and it was a Russian name i did not recognize. I looked him up on the internet, wondering how this random idiot managed to get these inept footnotes published with he last work of a genius, and sure enough, it turned out it was Nabakov that did the footnotes. Yeah, nevertheless, the book is great fun and i have read it three times. I read that Pale Fire is even more of a puzzlebox than Ada or Ardor, and i dont think i am ready for that yet. But maybe someday, when i am feeling adventurous.
- debo_ 2y ago> I think it was on the second reading that i figured out it was supposed to be alternate reality science fiction The only reason I knew this was because I read the Wikipedia article after I finished the book. It was a strange experience to enjoy the prose even though I had no idea what was happening.
- razadots 2y agoI love Nabokov. In fact, I named a stray cat after him who has since abandoned me. Or I, him. If you want a more approachable book of his to start off (pale fire is tremendous but daunting) I would recommend Laughter in the Dark. It is short and moves effortlessly. The characters are charming and evil. The plot reads like a suspense thriller. It is a wicked, wicked delightfully wicked book. Anyways, if you've seen my cat please feed him.
- jjtheblunt 2y agoLuzhin's Defense / The Defense / Zashchita Luzhina is awesome too.
- mlsu 2y agoI read Pale Fire on the plane recently. Picked it up randomly, knew almost nothing about it. It is absolutely riotous. Most of the references probably went over my head, but I was immediately annoyed, then grinning about how annoyed I was, then tearing into the next page to try to unwrap just who the hell is Kinbote. About 10 pages in you will discover that you're never going to fully figure it out, and then the question is where the hell is this character going to take you. To the fractal depths of his soul, turns out. And obviously the lettering is a lyrical joy. 10/10
- wmorse 2y agoI read it randomly, too, having found it in a summer vacation house. Found it hilarious, once I finally caught on, and went back and re-read it over the summer. Isn't most "great" literature best read if you discover it yourself? Much more fun than university seminars on Tolstoevsky, не так ли?
- MonkeyIsNull 2y ago> Much more fun than university seminars on Tolstoevsky, не так ли? Только если вам не нравится Достоевский! Но мало кто может сравниться с Набоков.
- joaorico 2y agoI suppose it's quite off-topic, but some weeks ago I read a small book by Mary Gaitskill, the writer of the piece. It's called "Lost Cat". I highly recommend it. Ironically, it might be an approximate opposite of Pale Fire. It's very short, with simple yet beautiful prose, filled with intense, raw emotions.
- deleted 2y ago[deleted]
- everybodyknows 2y agoOn-topic enough. Gaitskill writing previously on Pale Fire (in another context): https://unherd.com/2022/06/the-death-of-literature/ https://unherd.com/2022/06/the-death-of-literature/ The link contains audio of her reading from a favorite passage of the novel.
- booleandilemma 2y agolest the reader feel the awful stammering of suppressed terror quavering through my words without knowing what they are feeling. What?
- fwip 2y agoContext, for easy reference: > Pale Fire is one of the greatest books I’ve ever read. It is so great it is terrifying to write about. This is not something I would normally confess, but in this case it seems better to just come out and say it, lest the reader feel the awful stammering of suppressed terror quavering through my words without knowing what they are feeling. It is terrifying! The sentence fragment then means, "I wouldn't have mentioned that it's terrifying to write about, except I worry that the reader could tell that something was wrong by the way I wrote, but not know what."
- nickdrozd 2y agoAt the end of the foreword, Kinbote says: > Let me state that without my notes Shade's text simply has no human reality at all, since the human reality of such a poem as his ... has to depend entirely on the reality of its author and his surroundings, attachments and so forth, a reality that only my notes can provide. To this statement my dear poet would probably not have subscribed, but, for better or worse, it is the commentator who has the last word. Final exam questions: 1. To what extent did Nabokov agree or disagree with this approach to literary criticism? 2. Did Nabokov personally identify more with Shade or with Kinbote?
- vessenes 2y agoOof, I hate these questions. Nabokov would have hated 1 as a question because Pale Fire is a sort of extended essay about this very thing, written in the voice of a narcissistic obsessive weirdo and providing him with a sort of chorus response as a poem. 2 feels simplistic to me as well, when asked about one of the great masters of characterization. If you ask who did he sympathize with more, then I’d say possibly ‘neither’.
- hawthorned7 2y agoOne of my all-time favorites. I loved it so much that I convinced my partner to name our band after the astronomer Starover Blue. " The great Starover Blue reviewed the role Planets had played as landfalls of the soul. "
- kleer001 2y agoTried it, couldn't get into it. And this was when I was unemployed and living with my now wife. So, I had time galore. It seems like a book you have to read cover to cover in one sitting to jam it all in your head. Now, from what I recall I did chuckle a couple times. But other than that it was a big shrug-fest to me. Just couldn't muster a care. I never thought I'd admit to such base and earthen attitude, nay vulgar. But there we are.
- AlbertCory 2y agoWhen I saw this, I looked on my bookshelf. I know I read something by Nabokov other than Lolita, and I wondered if it was Pale Fire. It was. I remember liking it at the time, but that's all. Now I'm going to go back and read it again. Must have missed something.
- black_13 2y ago[dead]
- xefer 2y agoIn Pale Fire, Nabokov coins a couple of great collective nouns when he writes "... an anthology of poets and a brocken of their wives ..." The Brocken is the highest peak in the Harz mountains of Germany and is where witches are said to gather on Walpurgis Night. So it was quite a subtle dig.
- justin66 2y agoThe main thing people who haven't read it need to know is, it's not a difficult read. A great book that's worth reading, but I'm not sure why the reviewer took the approach she did.
- chch 2y agoI always saw Pale Fire as somewhat of self-parody, which made me enjoy it more. Seven years before Pale Fire came out, Nabokov was working on his translation of Eugene Onegin. Often, people argue that a translated novel should have no end/footnotes, because a "good translation" should read "naturally" to a reader. Nabokov disagreed, and wrote an article that included the phrase: > "I want translations with copious footnotes, footnotes reaching up like skyscrapers to the top of this or that page so as to leave only the gleam of one textual line between commentary and eternity." [1] Quite a fun image, and one he took somewhat seriously, as his endnote commentary for Onegin is more than twice as long as the translation itself! [2] So, for me personally, I can't imagine a world where he didn't reflect on his own zeal here, and realize "I think there's a novel idea in here somewhere!" [1] "Problems in Translation: Onegin in English." Partisan Review 22, no. 4 (1955): 512. [2] https://secondstorybooks.cdn.bibliopolis.com/pictures/1367176.jpg https://secondstorybooks.cdn.bibliopolis.com/pictures/136717...
- OldGuyInTheClub 2y agoI saw it as Nabokov's celebration of his own genius and the power it gave him. Quite "the flex" as the young peuple say. He was expert in setting chess problems, lepidoptery, French and Russian cultural and literary arcana, linguistics, politics - especially of the academic kind, psychology, and a few others I am undoubtedly missing. According to what I've read, all that and more is in "Pale Fire." At that point in his life, I think he knew well that a work like this would be devoured by his fans and vivisected by academics. He alone knew how deep the maze went and the layers of arcane tricks he was pulling. For example, see: https://thenabokovian.org/classics/barabtarlo-fa84 https://thenabokovian.org/classics/barabtarlo-fa84 via https://thenabokovian.org https://thenabokovian.org Also, https://thenabokovian.org/forum/6 https://thenabokovian.org/forum/6 and https://thenabokovian.org/nabokv-l https://thenabokovian.org/nabokv-l for 25+ years of a Nabokovian mailing list. It's all imbued with a cruelty that some of the very brilliant enjoy displaying.
- Lightkey 2y agoI was so sure this would be a reference about the pale in Disco Elysium..
- dbtc 2y agowho said I was terrified? I haven't read the article, I am only responding to the title. The title did not make me want click it. (The comments, otoh, always good)
- imksclk 2y agoFor someone who wants to get into poetry and literature, but has never read anything past the elementary school, would Pale Fire be a good start? I'm not particularly sharp witted when it comes to books, would it be a good idea to read it in parallel with some sort of an analysis or commentary? Should I read it translated into my native language (Polish)? I could get through it in English probably, by looking up some of the words. I wonder how much is "lost" when a book like this is translated.
- Xeyz0r 2y ago"Pale Fire" is indeed a remarkable and intricately constructed novel.