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A big factor is that Apple buys out all of TSMC's capacity for new process nodes, so they get the smallest transistors that run at lower power and higher speeds
by lights0123 2y ago
A big factor is that Apple buys out all of TSMC's capacity for new process nodes, so they get the smallest transistors that run at lower power and higher speeds.
- dagmx 2y agoPeople say this, but it’s a trite trivialization of the architectural choices made beyond just the ISA. When AMD/intel have moved to the same or comparable nodes, they’re not catching up for perf/watt. Lunar Lake will be on the same N3E as M4, so we’ll have to see how it compares.
- AnthonyMouse 2y ago> When AMD/intel have moved to the same or comparable nodes, they’re not catching up for perf/watt. They are though? If you compare the Apple and AMD processors that are both on e.g. TSMC 5nm, the AMD ones have if anything better performance per watt. Compare the 7945HX3D to any Apple CPU on the same 5nm process with a similar TDP and the 7945HX3D will generally have similar if not better performance. But people keep doing comparisons right after Apple is the first to release a CPU on a new TSMC process, and naturally if you don't compare like with like, the newer process is more efficient. Another reason people keep getting confused is that AMD isn't afraid to go back and release updated models of older cores on their original process nodes. So for example the 7730U is from 2023, it's just a year old, but it's Zen 3 on the 7nm process they've been using since 2019. Meanwhile the "real" 2023 release was Zen 4 on 4nm (e.g. 7840U), but don't pick the wrong one to do your comparison.
- KingOfCoders 2y ago"Compare the 7945HX3D to any Apple CPU on the same 5nm process with a similar TDP and the 7945HX3D will generally have similar if not better performance." Sounds interesting, do you have numbers - s I get this argument often, that on the same node, Apple is so much better.
- AnthonyMouse 2y agoSo here's each vendor's first CPU on TSMC 5nm. This is actually the only process they've both used, and AMD only used it for a couple of models -- they tend to use all the ones Apple doesn't (7nm, 6nm, 4nm vs. 5nm and 3nm), which makes direct comparisons rare. But this is one: https://nanoreview.net/en/cpu-compare/apple-m1-ultra-vs-amd-ryzen-9-7945hx3d https://nanoreview.net/en/cpu-compare/apple-m1-ultra-vs-amd-... They both have a similar TDP, a similar number of cores and the performance on most tests is similar or better for the 7945HX3D.
- KingOfCoders 2y ago<3 OT: I think it also shows the bad iGPU compared to Apples offerings, so too many x86 laptops have additional GPUs, which reduces battery life (we'll see what Strix brings) Also both have 16 performance cores, but the Ryzen is faster in multicore. The Ryzen is one year later b/c due to node access/ costs. Doesn't look like "far behind".
- AnthonyMouse 2y agoThere is nothing inherently inefficient about a discrete GPU. Discrete GPUs often have extremely good performance per watt. That's just not the same thing as having a low TDP. Performance per watt is higher when something is twice as power hungry but three times faster.
- KingOfCoders 2y agoNot an electrical engineer, my GPU board has lots of additional chips and VRMs, and I do think those should take additional power. All of these are cooled which means they convert power into heat, so I would assume a discrete board draws more power than a SoC. But as I've said, not an electrical engineer (Just some electrical engineering exams at university).
- AnthonyMouse 2y ago
- KingOfCoders 2y agoAs others have been pointing out, Lunar Lake is on N3B and N3E (M4) is booked up by Apple.
- wmf 2y agoNotably, Lunar Lake and Apple M4 are made on the same TSMC N3E process and have similar specs so we can perform an apples to apples comparison (sorry not sorry).
- DeathArrow 2y ago>Notably, Lunar Lake and Apple M4 are made on the same TSMC N3E Lunar Lake will be on N3B process.
- KingOfCoders 2y agoThanks for the clarification.
- wmf 2y agoSame as M3 then.