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Fill your bowl to the brim and it will spill. Keep sharpening your knife and it will blunt. Chase after money and security and your heart will never unclench. C

Fill your bowl to the brim and it will spill. Keep sharpening your knife and it will blunt. Chase after money and security and your heart will never unclench. Care about people’s approval and you will be their prisoner. Do your work, then step back. The only path to serenity. Tao Te Ching

satvikpendem 2y ago
Ironic.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
MeImCounting 2y ago
Ok yeah but the thing about the knife is just not true, a knifes not sharp until you de-burr it and if you just continue to grind the edge youre going to just be building a bigger burr and removing metal, eventually the knife will be ground away but thats beside the point. Good knife sharpening does only need a bit of grinding until you reach the grit you want and then de-burr but youre not going to make it dull by continuing to remove metal.
- xiaq 2y ago
  That seems to be a bad translation, the original text means something like “sharpen something fully and it won’t last so long” (presumably due to it being more brittle). The text (like the rest of Tao Te Ching) is pretty vague and doesn’t actually refer to knives, so it could also be read metaphorically.
  - MeImCounting 2y ago
    I was being silly and pedantic but thats an interesting distinction! I imagine Laozi probably knew how to have sharp knives so I defer to his wisdom as far as 4th century chinese knives go anyways. Perhaps they used a different technique there and then than the type of knife sharpening I'm familiar with.
    - afiori 2y ago
      Another interpretation is simply that you can only sharpen a knife so many times before there is no longer a knife at all
- throwanem 2y ago
  Sure you will, because a knife blade good enough to hold an edge at all isn't homogeneous. Good high-carbon steel is harder to make than mild steel. It used to be a lot harder to make; carburization in ambient atmosphere takes an enormous amount of time and fuel, and even then is hit-or-miss. Because that's so, and also because the brittleness that makes high-carbon steel great for knife edges also makes for a very fragile blade if that's all you use, good knives historically have been made by forge-welding a strip of high-carbon steel to a larger piece of mild steel. The mild steel makes up the bulk of the blade, and the high-carbon strip is shaped and ground to form the edge. You can sharpen that edge by removing metal, but if you do that enough, you'll remove all the high-carbon steel and end up sharpening the mild stuff. That can't take as good an edge or hold it nearly as long, so you end up with a knife that's dull no matter what you do. This is also why sharpening steels are a thing, because good knives are usually still made this way. Stropping on a steel cleans up the edge profile without removing metal, yielding a sharper cut without shortening the life of the tool. Granted, all of this discussion of the mechanics misses the point of the koan, which is all about moderation and humility, and nothing really to do with cleverness beyond the always wise counsel not to let it run away with you. But then, too, moderate discussion of the mechanics may in this case cut toward that end, so I don't really feel this an indulgence to excess.
  - lannisterstark 2y ago
    >sharpening steels Are you talking about honing rods? Because they 'sharpen' nothing.
    - throwanem 2y ago
      Sure, I guess. I don't really make a habit of pedantry, in the kitchen at least; we both evidently know very well to what tool I referred, and if it means something to you to use one name over another then you're certainly welcome to honor that preference.
      - lannisterstark 2y ago
        No, it wasn't about the pedantry, it was about the fact that they don't really sharpen anything. Honing rods are just used to keep the edge, generally. They won't sharpen a dull knife.

satvikpendem 2y ago

Ironic.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

MeImCounting 2y ago

Ok yeah but the thing about the knife is just not true, a knifes not sharp until you de-burr it and if you just continue to grind the edge youre going to just be building a bigger burr and removing metal, eventually the knife will be ground away but thats beside the point. Good knife sharpening does only need a bit of grinding until you reach the grit you want and then de-burr but youre not going to make it dull by continuing to remove metal.

xiaq 2y ago
That seems to be a bad translation, the original text means something like “sharpen something fully and it won’t last so long” (presumably due to it being more brittle). The text (like the rest of Tao Te Ching) is pretty vague and doesn’t actually refer to knives, so it could also be read metaphorically.
- MeImCounting 2y ago
  I was being silly and pedantic but thats an interesting distinction! I imagine Laozi probably knew how to have sharp knives so I defer to his wisdom as far as 4th century chinese knives go anyways. Perhaps they used a different technique there and then than the type of knife sharpening I'm familiar with.
  - afiori 2y ago
    Another interpretation is simply that you can only sharpen a knife so many times before there is no longer a knife at all
throwanem 2y ago
Sure you will, because a knife blade good enough to hold an edge at all isn't homogeneous. Good high-carbon steel is harder to make than mild steel. It used to be a lot harder to make; carburization in ambient atmosphere takes an enormous amount of time and fuel, and even then is hit-or-miss. Because that's so, and also because the brittleness that makes high-carbon steel great for knife edges also makes for a very fragile blade if that's all you use, good knives historically have been made by forge-welding a strip of high-carbon steel to a larger piece of mild steel. The mild steel makes up the bulk of the blade, and the high-carbon strip is shaped and ground to form the edge. You can sharpen that edge by removing metal, but if you do that enough, you'll remove all the high-carbon steel and end up sharpening the mild stuff. That can't take as good an edge or hold it nearly as long, so you end up with a knife that's dull no matter what you do. This is also why sharpening steels are a thing, because good knives are usually still made this way. Stropping on a steel cleans up the edge profile without removing metal, yielding a sharper cut without shortening the life of the tool. Granted, all of this discussion of the mechanics misses the point of the koan, which is all about moderation and humility, and nothing really to do with cleverness beyond the always wise counsel not to let it run away with you. But then, too, moderate discussion of the mechanics may in this case cut toward that end, so I don't really feel this an indulgence to excess.
- lannisterstark 2y ago
  >sharpening steels Are you talking about honing rods? Because they 'sharpen' nothing.
  - throwanem 2y ago
    Sure, I guess. I don't really make a habit of pedantry, in the kitchen at least; we both evidently know very well to what tool I referred, and if it means something to you to use one name over another then you're certainly welcome to honor that preference.
    - lannisterstark 2y ago
      No, it wasn't about the pedantry, it was about the fact that they don't really sharpen anything. Honing rods are just used to keep the edge, generally. They won't sharpen a dull knife.