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Note that modern Chinese is heavily influenced by modern English. During the May Fourth Movement[1], prominent authors like Lu Xun diligently explored how to wr

Note that modern Chinese is heavily influenced by modern English. During the May Fourth Movement[1], prominent authors like Lu Xun diligently explored how to write modern Chinese with "westernized" style. The experiment largely failed, but modern Chinese did get influenced a lot, to the point that multiple authors wrote books or articles pleading people not to write "westernized" Chinese. A typical example is nounification of verbs, something that traditional Chinese never had. In contrast, younger generations love to say Chinese equivalent to something like "do improvement" instead of "improve" (进行改进，instead of 改进, even though it is still considered bad writing style. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_Fourth_Movement https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_Fourth_Movement

hnfong 2y ago
This is a common claim. But... I haven't seen any credible claims of how Chinese was actually "westernized" aside of Chinese writers seemingly randomly pointing fingers and blaming European influence for a change of style initiated by the younger generation. Even your example shouldn't convince anyone, since in English we don't say "do improvement", and generally English doesn't overuse "do <noun>" much. I've read an attempt to connect the dots here: https://news.mingpao.com/ins/%E6%96%87%E6%91%98/article/20171215/s00022/1513328994116/%E6%80%8E%E6%A8%A3%E6%94%B9%E9%80%B2%E8%8B%B1%E5%BC%8F%E4%B8%AD%E6%96%87-%E2%94%80%E2%94%80%E8%AB%96%E4%B8%AD%E6%96%87%E7%9A%84%E5%B8%B8%E6%85%8B%E8%88%87%E8%AE%8A%E6%85%8B%EF%BC%88%E6%96%87-%E4%BD%99%E5%85%89%E4%B8%AD%EF%BC%89 https://news.mingpao.com/ins/%E6%96%87%E6%91%98/article/2017... Which was ridiculous if you read carefully, and I've gleefully written an article shredding it apart -- https://hnfong.github.io/public-crap/writings/2020/%E7%A9%B6%E7%AB%9F_%E4%BD%99%E5%85%89%E4%B8%AD_%E8%AD%98%E5%94%94%E8%AD%98%E8%8B%B1%E6%96%87_qm_.html https://hnfong.github.io/public-crap/writings/2020/%E7%A9%B6...
- numpad0 2y ago
  I can feel a sort of a double translation shims hiding in that example. Chinese "改进" would work as a verb on its own but dictionary wise it will tend to mentally map to noun form "improvement" than the verb form "[to]improve", and that necessitates a "do" verb, which plausibly results in bloated forms such as "进行改进"(forward going [with] improving forward). Common claims are often common for reasons...
  - g9yuayon 2y ago
    Well in this case Chinese is like Spanish and Japanese, a verb can also be used as a gerund.
- g9yuayon 2y ago
  Yup, 余光中 is one of such authors who urge people to write authentic instead of "westernized" Chinese. I wouldn't call it "blame", though. Just like in English, there's certain standard on good writing. In Chinese, 白话文 is really the way to go. That's why among the authors in the May 4th movement, 钱钟书´s modern Chinese is just so much more pleasant to read than Lu Xun's. If you don't believe me, try reading his translation of Nikolai Gogol's Dead Souls. Oh my... Joan Pinkham wrote a book titled The Translator's Guide to Chinglish[1]. It's a fun book to read and really teaches native Chinese speakers how to write good English. Interestingly, a lot of the lessons in that book can be applied to Chinese writing too, such as avoiding nounification, and removing duplication. For instance, just say "dislike" instead of "to have a dislike for". And instead of saying "give guidance to", just say "guide". [1] https://www.amazon.com/Translators-Guide-Chinglish-Joan-Pinkham/dp/B0011A9NH4 https://www.amazon.com/Translators-Guide-Chinglish-Joan-Pink...
  - hnfong 2y ago
    I maintain that "blame" is the right word. He doesn't establish any real casual connections of poor Chinese writing to European linguistic influence, so it seems to me that he is just pointing fingers at some convenient villain (European/English influence) instead of admitting that maybe people are just bad at writing. Or it occurred at a time when literacy rates massively increased, and thus there was some vulgarization of the language to some extent. I think he explains how to write better Chinese pretty well, I just don't think pointing fingers at other languages is helpful especially if it isn't grounded in fact or evidence.
qazxcvbnm 2y ago
Classical Chinese has nounification... very heavily; vernacular, another thing, of course.

hnfong 2y ago

This is a common claim. But... I haven't seen any credible claims of how Chinese was actually "westernized" aside of Chinese writers seemingly randomly pointing fingers and blaming European influence for a change of style initiated by the younger generation. Even your example shouldn't convince anyone, since in English we don't say "do improvement", and generally English doesn't overuse "do <noun>" much. I've read an attempt to connect the dots here: https://news.mingpao.com/ins/%E6%96%87%E6%91%98/article/20171215/s00022/1513328994116/%E6%80%8E%E6%A8%A3%E6%94%B9%E9%80%B2%E8%8B%B1%E5%BC%8F%E4%B8%AD%E6%96%87-%E2%94%80%E2%94%80%E8%AB%96%E4%B8%AD%E6%96%87%E7%9A%84%E5%B8%B8%E6%85%8B%E8%88%87%E8%AE%8A%E6%85%8B%EF%BC%88%E6%96%87-%E4%BD%99%E5%85%89%E4%B8%AD%EF%BC%89 https://news.mingpao.com/ins/%E6%96%87%E6%91%98/article/2017... Which was ridiculous if you read carefully, and I've gleefully written an article shredding it apart -- https://hnfong.github.io/public-crap/writings/2020/%E7%A9%B6%E7%AB%9F_%E4%BD%99%E5%85%89%E4%B8%AD_%E8%AD%98%E5%94%94%E8%AD%98%E8%8B%B1%E6%96%87_qm_.html https://hnfong.github.io/public-crap/writings/2020/%E7%A9%B6...

numpad0 2y ago
I can feel a sort of a double translation shims hiding in that example. Chinese "改进" would work as a verb on its own but dictionary wise it will tend to mentally map to noun form "improvement" than the verb form "[to]improve", and that necessitates a "do" verb, which plausibly results in bloated forms such as "进行改进"(forward going [with] improving forward). Common claims are often common for reasons...
- g9yuayon 2y ago
  Well in this case Chinese is like Spanish and Japanese, a verb can also be used as a gerund.
g9yuayon 2y ago
Yup, 余光中 is one of such authors who urge people to write authentic instead of "westernized" Chinese. I wouldn't call it "blame", though. Just like in English, there's certain standard on good writing. In Chinese, 白话文 is really the way to go. That's why among the authors in the May 4th movement, 钱钟书´s modern Chinese is just so much more pleasant to read than Lu Xun's. If you don't believe me, try reading his translation of Nikolai Gogol's Dead Souls. Oh my... Joan Pinkham wrote a book titled The Translator's Guide to Chinglish[1]. It's a fun book to read and really teaches native Chinese speakers how to write good English. Interestingly, a lot of the lessons in that book can be applied to Chinese writing too, such as avoiding nounification, and removing duplication. For instance, just say "dislike" instead of "to have a dislike for". And instead of saying "give guidance to", just say "guide". [1] https://www.amazon.com/Translators-Guide-Chinglish-Joan-Pinkham/dp/B0011A9NH4 https://www.amazon.com/Translators-Guide-Chinglish-Joan-Pink...
- hnfong 2y ago
  I maintain that "blame" is the right word. He doesn't establish any real casual connections of poor Chinese writing to European linguistic influence, so it seems to me that he is just pointing fingers at some convenient villain (European/English influence) instead of admitting that maybe people are just bad at writing. Or it occurred at a time when literacy rates massively increased, and thus there was some vulgarization of the language to some extent. I think he explains how to write better Chinese pretty well, I just don't think pointing fingers at other languages is helpful especially if it isn't grounded in fact or evidence.

qazxcvbnm 2y ago

Classical Chinese has nounification... very heavily; vernacular, another thing, of course.