3 ms·

Having a preference is fine, but then I don't understand what you meant with looking up the word... You look it up, find out it's a valid spelling and then what

Having a preference is fine, but then I don't understand what you meant with looking up the word... You look it up, find out it's a valid spelling and then what?

ReleaseCandidat 2y ago
You look it up and realise that the "official german" spelling of Habsburg is Habsburg since quite some time and usage of "Hapsburg" should have been corrected and obsoleted by now. Which is interesting is The first known use of Hapsburg was circa 1861 https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Hapsburg https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Hapsburg
- bee_rider 2y ago
  It isn’t incorrect, it is just the US-English localization. Names often get switched around a bit when translated into other languages. If the Hapsburgs wanted to enforce a different spelling, I guess they should have built a better empire, haha.
  - ReleaseCandidat 2y ago
    > Names often get switched around a bit when translated into other languages. Actually, no, usually they don't get "translated" to english if the name isn't written in an alphabet that needs transcription, like Cyrillic, Chinese, ...
- anyfoo 2y ago
  Are you writing Tokyo, or Toukyo, as the literal romanization from the Japanese word would be? Wait, why are you using the Latin alphabet at all, when the official Japanese spelling is 東京? Just because English and German share a common spelling system (not completely, though), doesn’t mean words can’t be different. In English it’s still Cologne instead of Köln. In German it’s still Tokyo instead of 東京 or even just Toukyo. I am German, by the way.
  - ReleaseCandidat 2y ago
    While it is true that city names (at least the bigger ones) have their english version, names (surnames and first names) are not "translated" into their english forms if the used alphabet is (more or less) the same. Now you could argue that the name of the dynasty isn't the same as the surname "Habsburg", so that the usual rule does not apply.
    - anyfoo 2y ago
      Do you write Iulius Caesar or Julius Caesar? Same writing system (or rather, it even originated there). Generally, even without the counterexample, you just postulated an arbitrary, somewhat contrived rule. "Cities can have different names, people cannot, but only as long as the writing system matches". You can want this, but good luck with getting language to adhere to it. If I'd correct Germans for all their "misuse", or at least idiosyncratic use, of English expressions (handy, public viewing, "learnings"...), it wouldn't make anybody happy. I put "misuse" in quotes deliberately, because German has just adopted these words into different meanings and connotations, just like Japanese did, and that's okay. Language prescriptionism is not realistic.
  - pezezin 2y ago
    If we are being pedantic, the correct romanization is Tōkyō.
    - anyfoo 2y ago
      Ugh, I mixed it up with Kyouto, thanks. (ou instead ō however is just as legal as oe is for ö in German.)
- The_Colonel 2y ago
  > and usage of "Hapsburg" should have been corrected and obsoleted by now. Seems like a classic confusion about the difference between is and ought. You believe that it should be obsoleted, but it is not obsoleted. Even the link you provided has no mention of the term Hapsburg being obsoleted, so I still have to wonder what you meant by "look it up".
  - Detrytus 2y ago
    Well, just from the Merriam-Webster entry linked above, plus Wikipedia: It's been spelled out as "Habsburg" since late 13th century. Just because around 1861 someone misspelled it as "Hapsburg" does not mean we should perpetually repeat this error. You know how this works: human life is short, and our memory is even shorter, so it takes just one uneducated idiot to make a spelling mistake, then dozen of other idiots to repeat it, and after hundred years the mistake becomes a time-honored tradition.
    - voltaireodactyl 2y ago
      As the purpose of communication is to communicate, language ends up being descriptive rather than prescriptive — as frustrating as that can be to the more precise among us (believe me I feel your pain). Or to put it in tech terms: language is a blockchain.
      - Detrytus 2y ago
        Language in general: yes, you're right, it's about communication, so it can be a little fuzzy. But for family names it's all about unambiguously identifying a person. "Habsburg" and "Hapsburg" might as well have been two unrelated families, not different spellings of the same name. So, the precision matters here.

Having a preference is fine, but then I don't understand what you meant with looking up the word... You look it up, find out it's a valid spelling and then what?

ReleaseCandidat 2y ago

You look it up and realise that the "official german" spelling of Habsburg is Habsburg since quite some time and usage of "Hapsburg" should have been corrected and obsoleted by now. Which is interesting is The first known use of Hapsburg was circa 1861 https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Hapsburg https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Hapsburg

bee_rider 2y ago
It isn’t incorrect, it is just the US-English localization. Names often get switched around a bit when translated into other languages. If the Hapsburgs wanted to enforce a different spelling, I guess they should have built a better empire, haha.
- ReleaseCandidat 2y ago
  > Names often get switched around a bit when translated into other languages. Actually, no, usually they don't get "translated" to english if the name isn't written in an alphabet that needs transcription, like Cyrillic, Chinese, ...
anyfoo 2y ago
Are you writing Tokyo, or Toukyo, as the literal romanization from the Japanese word would be? Wait, why are you using the Latin alphabet at all, when the official Japanese spelling is 東京? Just because English and German share a common spelling system (not completely, though), doesn’t mean words can’t be different. In English it’s still Cologne instead of Köln. In German it’s still Tokyo instead of 東京 or even just Toukyo. I am German, by the way.
- ReleaseCandidat 2y ago
  While it is true that city names (at least the bigger ones) have their english version, names (surnames and first names) are not "translated" into their english forms if the used alphabet is (more or less) the same. Now you could argue that the name of the dynasty isn't the same as the surname "Habsburg", so that the usual rule does not apply.
  - anyfoo 2y ago
    Do you write Iulius Caesar or Julius Caesar? Same writing system (or rather, it even originated there). Generally, even without the counterexample, you just postulated an arbitrary, somewhat contrived rule. "Cities can have different names, people cannot, but only as long as the writing system matches". You can want this, but good luck with getting language to adhere to it. If I'd correct Germans for all their "misuse", or at least idiosyncratic use, of English expressions (handy, public viewing, "learnings"...), it wouldn't make anybody happy. I put "misuse" in quotes deliberately, because German has just adopted these words into different meanings and connotations, just like Japanese did, and that's okay. Language prescriptionism is not realistic.
- pezezin 2y ago
  If we are being pedantic, the correct romanization is Tōkyō.
  - anyfoo 2y ago
    Ugh, I mixed it up with Kyouto, thanks. (ou instead ō however is just as legal as oe is for ö in German.)
The_Colonel 2y ago
> and usage of "Hapsburg" should have been corrected and obsoleted by now. Seems like a classic confusion about the difference between is and ought. You believe that it should be obsoleted, but it is not obsoleted. Even the link you provided has no mention of the term Hapsburg being obsoleted, so I still have to wonder what you meant by "look it up".
- Detrytus 2y ago
  Well, just from the Merriam-Webster entry linked above, plus Wikipedia: It's been spelled out as "Habsburg" since late 13th century. Just because around 1861 someone misspelled it as "Hapsburg" does not mean we should perpetually repeat this error. You know how this works: human life is short, and our memory is even shorter, so it takes just one uneducated idiot to make a spelling mistake, then dozen of other idiots to repeat it, and after hundred years the mistake becomes a time-honored tradition.
  - voltaireodactyl 2y ago
    As the purpose of communication is to communicate, language ends up being descriptive rather than prescriptive — as frustrating as that can be to the more precise among us (believe me I feel your pain). Or to put it in tech terms: language is a blockchain.
    - Detrytus 2y ago
      Language in general: yes, you're right, it's about communication, so it can be a little fuzzy. But for family names it's all about unambiguously identifying a person. "Habsburg" and "Hapsburg" might as well have been two unrelated families, not different spellings of the same name. So, the precision matters here.