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What nobody knows is what happens when everyone goes full ham with manipulations. All these techniques, from gamification to behavioral mining, were developed

What nobody knows is what happens when everyone goes full ham with manipulations. All these techniques, from gamification to behavioral mining, were developed in isolation - when only one actor maximized their profits. Their results apply when most other actors don't pursue the same goals. Once everyone starts to do it, I predict none will work and will be counterproductive on a larger scale. A bit of a tragedy of commons.

bluefirebrand 2y ago
Seems like a bit of a prisoner's dilemma from the perspective of the companies If they don't do it but their competitors do, they will lose But if all of them do it they will all lose in the end
- londons_explore 2y ago
  And a nash equilibrium will be found, exactly as free markets should behave.
  - rusk 2y ago
    And what about the underserved consumers keeping this whole equilibrium afloat?
  - bluefirebrand 2y ago
    "a nash equilibrium" also known as "the bottom, reached after a race there" It's not really what I would call a good outcome
- randomtoast 2y ago
  You can see this dilemma on YouTube. Videos with highly exaggerated facial expressions, arrows, and sensationalized titles full of exclamation marks tend to attract far more clicks (and therefore more revenue) than those with honest titles and straightforward thumbnails. This trend has forced even high-quality content creators to adopt these tactics to remain financially viable. Despite the misleading titles and thumbnails, their actual content often maintains the same high standards once the video begins.
  - wodenokoto 2y ago
    I sometimes wonder if patrons get access to new videos without the spoiler/click bait thumbnail and the intro that shows the finished product. It’s like, “today you won’t guess what I’ll be building” yes, I can, you just showed me twice.
  - Euphorbium 2y ago
    I see clickbait thumbnail, I press do not recommend channel. It is the only way.
    - stantaylor 2y ago
      Unfortunately, people like you and me are the minority.
      - DataDive 2y ago
        it is not about explicitly voting down a Youtube channel to punish the creator for making exaggerated claims, that type of action does not scale what will happen instead is that people will develop an immunity to these types of thumbnails and you will visit less - behaviors are the main driving mechanisms it will be boring like exaggerated burlesque facial expressions in the early movies
    - hawski 2y ago
      If you are watching from the browser I can recommend Clickbait Remover for Youtube. It replaces the title image with a frame from the video itself. It also changes the case of titles for them not to scream at you. https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/clickbait-remover-for-youtube/ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/clickbait-rem... https://chromewebstore.google.com/detail/clickbait-remover-for-you/omoinegiohhgbikclijaniebjpkeopip https://chromewebstore.google.com/detail/clickbait-remover-f...
      - Euphorbium 2y ago
        Nah, you put that as thumbnail, you deserve your channel banned.
- TeMPOraL 2y ago
  That's advertising in a nutshell. Except we all lose, because of all the resources and people-hours burned on efforts that just cancel each other out.
figassis 2y ago
This is why time matters. Society has generational amnesia. New generations will think of this as normal, and will even call you weird for thinking it could ever work differently. There will be an equilibrium, but it will be much farther than you consider reasonable.
- DataDive 2y ago
  For example I think there is only so many gatcha games one can play in a lifetime. When the gatcha concept is new, everyone is on board and seems like a golden goose, but who will do it again and again? a generational amnesia is still 20 years ...
Spooky23 2y ago
Everyone does it because across most industries key commodities have been allowed to create little cartels and monopolies.
whack 2y ago
Why would they stop working when everyone does it? The methods described might be new, but the underlying principle is simple and fundamental - charge customers based on their willingness-to-pay. If customers are willing to pay $10 for your product, as opposed to $20, almost all businesses would take that into account when setting their prices. In a low-tech world, you can only price stuff using one-size-fits-all. So you would price stuff based on something like median-willingness-to-pay. This puts your product out-of-reach for half its potential customers, while giving a big discount to the other half. The techniques described in the article are designed to "fix" the above - sell the product to as many people as possible, and give everyone a more even discount compared to their willingness-to-pay. There is no reason for this strategy to stop working just because other companies are also doing it. In fact, it will only snowball once this practice becomes more commonly accepted. In a macro sense, fine-grain-price-differentiation is undoubtedly in the best interests of all corporations. Whether they are in the best interests of consumers is more debatable. I'm guessing the answer is no. In theory, the best possible outcome is perfect price differentiation, coupled with increased corporate tax rates (or capital gains tax rates) that are used to lower income tax rates. I doubt this will happen anytime soon.
- Turing_Machine 2y ago
  > Why would they stop working when everyone does it? If everyone does it, it's a de facto cartel. Cartels generally end when one of the members breaks ranks and starts selling the product for less than the agreed-upon cartel price and vacuuming up all the customers. The result is often a price war.
- DataDive 2y ago
  It stops working as more people understand the tricks. Trust works only when most actors are trustworthy. Once you know the prices are jacked up just for "you", and once you know you are being "played," you behave differently and resist. That is the point I am making, true value + gamification = price, but the gamification part is the quickest to do away with.
  - etrautmann 2y ago

bluefirebrand 2y ago

Seems like a bit of a prisoner's dilemma from the perspective of the companies If they don't do it but their competitors do, they will lose But if all of them do it they will all lose in the end

londons_explore 2y ago
And a nash equilibrium will be found, exactly as free markets should behave.
- rusk 2y ago
  And what about the underserved consumers keeping this whole equilibrium afloat?
- bluefirebrand 2y ago
  "a nash equilibrium" also known as "the bottom, reached after a race there" It's not really what I would call a good outcome
randomtoast 2y ago
You can see this dilemma on YouTube. Videos with highly exaggerated facial expressions, arrows, and sensationalized titles full of exclamation marks tend to attract far more clicks (and therefore more revenue) than those with honest titles and straightforward thumbnails. This trend has forced even high-quality content creators to adopt these tactics to remain financially viable. Despite the misleading titles and thumbnails, their actual content often maintains the same high standards once the video begins.
- wodenokoto 2y ago
  I sometimes wonder if patrons get access to new videos without the spoiler/click bait thumbnail and the intro that shows the finished product. It’s like, “today you won’t guess what I’ll be building” yes, I can, you just showed me twice.
- Euphorbium 2y ago
  I see clickbait thumbnail, I press do not recommend channel. It is the only way.
  - stantaylor 2y ago
    Unfortunately, people like you and me are the minority.
    - DataDive 2y ago
      it is not about explicitly voting down a Youtube channel to punish the creator for making exaggerated claims, that type of action does not scale what will happen instead is that people will develop an immunity to these types of thumbnails and you will visit less - behaviors are the main driving mechanisms it will be boring like exaggerated burlesque facial expressions in the early movies
  - hawski 2y ago
    If you are watching from the browser I can recommend Clickbait Remover for Youtube. It replaces the title image with a frame from the video itself. It also changes the case of titles for them not to scream at you. https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/clickbait-remover-for-youtube/ https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/clickbait-rem... https://chromewebstore.google.com/detail/clickbait-remover-for-you/omoinegiohhgbikclijaniebjpkeopip https://chromewebstore.google.com/detail/clickbait-remover-f...
    - Euphorbium 2y ago
      Nah, you put that as thumbnail, you deserve your channel banned.
TeMPOraL 2y ago
That's advertising in a nutshell. Except we all lose, because of all the resources and people-hours burned on efforts that just cancel each other out.

figassis 2y ago

This is why time matters. Society has generational amnesia. New generations will think of this as normal, and will even call you weird for thinking it could ever work differently. There will be an equilibrium, but it will be much farther than you consider reasonable.

DataDive 2y ago
For example I think there is only so many gatcha games one can play in a lifetime. When the gatcha concept is new, everyone is on board and seems like a golden goose, but who will do it again and again? a generational amnesia is still 20 years ...

Spooky23 2y ago

Everyone does it because across most industries key commodities have been allowed to create little cartels and monopolies.

whack 2y ago

Why would they stop working when everyone does it? The methods described might be new, but the underlying principle is simple and fundamental - charge customers based on their willingness-to-pay. If customers are willing to pay $10 for your product, as opposed to $20, almost all businesses would take that into account when setting their prices. In a low-tech world, you can only price stuff using one-size-fits-all. So you would price stuff based on something like median-willingness-to-pay. This puts your product out-of-reach for half its potential customers, while giving a big discount to the other half. The techniques described in the article are designed to "fix" the above - sell the product to as many people as possible, and give everyone a more even discount compared to their willingness-to-pay. There is no reason for this strategy to stop working just because other companies are also doing it. In fact, it will only snowball once this practice becomes more commonly accepted. In a macro sense, fine-grain-price-differentiation is undoubtedly in the best interests of all corporations. Whether they are in the best interests of consumers is more debatable. I'm guessing the answer is no. In theory, the best possible outcome is perfect price differentiation, coupled with increased corporate tax rates (or capital gains tax rates) that are used to lower income tax rates. I doubt this will happen anytime soon.

Turing_Machine 2y ago
> Why would they stop working when everyone does it? If everyone does it, it's a de facto cartel. Cartels generally end when one of the members breaks ranks and starts selling the product for less than the agreed-upon cartel price and vacuuming up all the customers. The result is often a price war.
DataDive 2y ago
It stops working as more people understand the tricks. Trust works only when most actors are trustworthy. Once you know the prices are jacked up just for "you", and once you know you are being "played," you behave differently and resist. That is the point I am making, true value + gamification = price, but the gamification part is the quickest to do away with.
- etrautmann 2y ago