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> But one thing I've learned is that most homeschool parents are even worse than public school and the risk of permanently harming your child through neglect is

> But one thing I've learned is that most homeschool parents are even worse than public school and the risk of permanently harming your child through neglect is dreadfully real. Right. Here in the UK it is an unusual thing but I think the majority of homeschoolers who are not doing so for reasons of child ill health or significant neurodiversity are, unfortunately, irresponsible or ignorant. I am not saying that I believe it is impossible for a child to be homeschooled well, especially by well-to-do parents who can hire tutors, but what I find is that those parents usually believe one or more other extremely outlying thing —- antivax, sovereign citizen, fear of radio frequencies, or extreme religion —- that is a kind of intellectual abuse, and is at odds with the kind of basic pedagogical commitment that is needed to make education work. Kids mostly cannot learn effectively from people who do not spend time thinking about the business of teaching. Some of the “homeschooling circles” around majority wealthy towns like the one I live in are just unbelievably silly people who are raising admittedly charming, polite, but borderline uneducated children who will have to rely on their parents’ networking skills to get anywhere in life and who are in for a shock at which doors do not open for them.

rayiner 2y ago
[flagged]
- defrost 2y ago
  > Your stereotypes about home schooled children are just wrong: in the opinion of Brendan W Case, someone deeply embedded within a particular Christian PoV who prolifictly writes about such things . . . > let’s talk about the toxic individualism and narcissism you learn in secular public schools. Another of Brendan's opinions, or one of your own then?
  - rayiner 2y ago
    > in the opinion of Brendan W Case, someone deeply embedded within a particular Christian PoV who prolifictly writes about such things He’s talking about the results of a Harvard study. When Harvard studies support a Christian viewpoint, Christians are going to write about the findings. What’s your point? > Another of Brendan's opinions, or one of your own then? No, my personal opinion. Compared to Mormons secular Americans are just awful. I don’t even have a dog in that hunt, I’m from a Muslim country. But having seen the school system here I’m not surprised. It’s just “me, me, me, do what you want, be who you want to be.”
    - defrost 2y ago
      So .. just absolute truth, black and white right|wrong with no possibility of a value judgement then. Or self reflection either. Got it. I have nothing to add as a clearly narcissistic product of a public secular school.
- throw46365 2y ago
  Yes, I went to a good school with Mormons. There’s not much toxic individualism and narcissism in British state schools. Our education culture is a bit more inclusive and outward-looking. Homeschooling is unusual here simply because people don’t feel (with good reason) schools are poisoning their kids or risking getting them shot. But I would concede that the culture of homeschooling may be more fringe here precisely because of that.
- freeopinion 2y ago
  I am what I think you mean by Mormon--a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I don't know you at all, so I have no idea whether you are going to hell, but my default guess is no. I'm not qualified to know even if I did know you so I don't know if that will make you feel any better. Please don't try to prove me wrong. :-) I agree with your generalization about cheerful, conscientious people. I have been mostly pleased with the efforts of people within that faith who have taught my children. Then again, I have been mostly pleased with the efforts of people not within that faith who have taught my children. But I have been pretty dissatisfied with the efforts of people who were not professional teachers. I have seen a discouraging share of toxic individualism and narcissism among people in all faiths, including my own. Perhaps I fall into the same pit. I'd like to defend all the good folks in London and New York and caution everyone to not depend on a person's religion as a teaching credential. (Or even a ticket to an after life.)
  - throw46365 2y ago
    Crossing threads a bit: I don’t think I would put the LDS in the homeschooling bracket in the UK. From what I have always understood, Mormons have tended to be integrationists here; the opposite of extreme. The minority faiths that engage in homeschooling are more likely to be Christian Scientists and some of the British minority groups such as the Plymouth and Exclusive Brethren. The latter particularly (think Amish, but with very English sensibilities and our commitment to petty bureaucracy, and you are most of the way there; come to think of it, they might be quite successful at some aspects of homeschooling). Even many Seventh Day Adventists send their kids to mainstream schools here.
  - rayiner 2y ago
    [flagged]
    - tptacek 2y ago
      You can't write these kinds of generalizations about millions of people here like this. You need to stop doing this.
freeopinion 2y ago
I bristle a little bit at the characterization of "antivax, sovereign citizen, fear of radio frequencies, or extreme religion" as intellectual abuse. But I seem to have the same opinion as you do about homeschooling. I am biased by a small sample size of people I know who have homeschooled. Too many of them did so because it was too hard to get their kids up, fed, dressed, and on the bus each morning. Or because one of the public school teachers voted for a particular politician. I have seen very few parents who I felt were competent to teach any subject at a high school level. I have seen a few homeschoolers who wisely depend on co-ops with subject experts. But mostly I have seen what I consider to be failures. To be fair, the failures I have seen in homeschool are not particularly worse than the failures I have seen in public school. I can't say if the two realities would be different if they swapped. It's just that I have seen great successes in public school and not so much from homeschools. My own children have been successful in public school. To achieve the same level of success in homeschool would have taken a personal effort from their parents that I am skeptical would have occurred. As it is, they got two bright, well-educated parents to help them understand what the public schools were teaching and to explain dissenting opinions about antivaxing, radio frequencies, extreme religion, etc. :-) In my experience, public school education with active, involved parents is better than active, involved parents alone. At least in the schools my children attended. I admit ignorance to all but a handful of pretty decent public schools. But it is awesome that my children can spend five hours a week learning propaganda about Jefferson and Marx and then I can spend another three hours over dinners to add in John Locke and our local city council. And I lack the structure of the curriculum the school provides. So we can critique and disagree and agree and reinforce and still move through a complete semester of topics because we aren't depending on me to provide the framework and the 95% of things we actually agree on. It's ok if we rabbit hole a bit because the professional teacher will change the subject tomorrow and keep things moving.
- throw46365 2y ago
  > I bristle a little bit at the characterization of "antivax, sovereign citizen, fear of radio frequencies, or extreme religion" as intellectual abuse. Oh, bristle away! I accept I am being contentious. But I grew up with several friends (even at a mainstream school) whose parents were in these categories (not so much fear of RF, that’s newer). Some of this stuff takes a hell of a lot of unpicking in later life; I know two adults who grew up in a common-enough minority religion who consider what they were taught to think to be profoundly damaging to their long-term intellectual, social and mental wellbeing. To pick up on one thing to agree with: I think it’s enormously important for children to have exposure to professional teachers. To people who know how teaching works, how to adapt it, how to moderate and meta-moderate learning.

rayiner 2y ago

[flagged]

defrost 2y ago
> Your stereotypes about home schooled children are just wrong: in the opinion of Brendan W Case, someone deeply embedded within a particular Christian PoV who prolifictly writes about such things . . . > let’s talk about the toxic individualism and narcissism you learn in secular public schools. Another of Brendan's opinions, or one of your own then?
- rayiner 2y ago
  > in the opinion of Brendan W Case, someone deeply embedded within a particular Christian PoV who prolifictly writes about such things He’s talking about the results of a Harvard study. When Harvard studies support a Christian viewpoint, Christians are going to write about the findings. What’s your point? > Another of Brendan's opinions, or one of your own then? No, my personal opinion. Compared to Mormons secular Americans are just awful. I don’t even have a dog in that hunt, I’m from a Muslim country. But having seen the school system here I’m not surprised. It’s just “me, me, me, do what you want, be who you want to be.”
  - defrost 2y ago
    So .. just absolute truth, black and white right|wrong with no possibility of a value judgement then. Or self reflection either. Got it. I have nothing to add as a clearly narcissistic product of a public secular school.
throw46365 2y ago
Yes, I went to a good school with Mormons. There’s not much toxic individualism and narcissism in British state schools. Our education culture is a bit more inclusive and outward-looking. Homeschooling is unusual here simply because people don’t feel (with good reason) schools are poisoning their kids or risking getting them shot. But I would concede that the culture of homeschooling may be more fringe here precisely because of that.
freeopinion 2y ago
I am what I think you mean by Mormon--a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. I don't know you at all, so I have no idea whether you are going to hell, but my default guess is no. I'm not qualified to know even if I did know you so I don't know if that will make you feel any better. Please don't try to prove me wrong. :-) I agree with your generalization about cheerful, conscientious people. I have been mostly pleased with the efforts of people within that faith who have taught my children. Then again, I have been mostly pleased with the efforts of people not within that faith who have taught my children. But I have been pretty dissatisfied with the efforts of people who were not professional teachers. I have seen a discouraging share of toxic individualism and narcissism among people in all faiths, including my own. Perhaps I fall into the same pit. I'd like to defend all the good folks in London and New York and caution everyone to not depend on a person's religion as a teaching credential. (Or even a ticket to an after life.)
- throw46365 2y ago
  Crossing threads a bit: I don’t think I would put the LDS in the homeschooling bracket in the UK. From what I have always understood, Mormons have tended to be integrationists here; the opposite of extreme. The minority faiths that engage in homeschooling are more likely to be Christian Scientists and some of the British minority groups such as the Plymouth and Exclusive Brethren. The latter particularly (think Amish, but with very English sensibilities and our commitment to petty bureaucracy, and you are most of the way there; come to think of it, they might be quite successful at some aspects of homeschooling). Even many Seventh Day Adventists send their kids to mainstream schools here.
- rayiner 2y ago
  [flagged]
  - tptacek 2y ago
    You can't write these kinds of generalizations about millions of people here like this. You need to stop doing this.

freeopinion 2y ago

I bristle a little bit at the characterization of "antivax, sovereign citizen, fear of radio frequencies, or extreme religion" as intellectual abuse. But I seem to have the same opinion as you do about homeschooling. I am biased by a small sample size of people I know who have homeschooled. Too many of them did so because it was too hard to get their kids up, fed, dressed, and on the bus each morning. Or because one of the public school teachers voted for a particular politician. I have seen very few parents who I felt were competent to teach any subject at a high school level. I have seen a few homeschoolers who wisely depend on co-ops with subject experts. But mostly I have seen what I consider to be failures. To be fair, the failures I have seen in homeschool are not particularly worse than the failures I have seen in public school. I can't say if the two realities would be different if they swapped. It's just that I have seen great successes in public school and not so much from homeschools. My own children have been successful in public school. To achieve the same level of success in homeschool would have taken a personal effort from their parents that I am skeptical would have occurred. As it is, they got two bright, well-educated parents to help them understand what the public schools were teaching and to explain dissenting opinions about antivaxing, radio frequencies, extreme religion, etc. :-) In my experience, public school education with active, involved parents is better than active, involved parents alone. At least in the schools my children attended. I admit ignorance to all but a handful of pretty decent public schools. But it is awesome that my children can spend five hours a week learning propaganda about Jefferson and Marx and then I can spend another three hours over dinners to add in John Locke and our local city council. And I lack the structure of the curriculum the school provides. So we can critique and disagree and agree and reinforce and still move through a complete semester of topics because we aren't depending on me to provide the framework and the 95% of things we actually agree on. It's ok if we rabbit hole a bit because the professional teacher will change the subject tomorrow and keep things moving.

throw46365 2y ago
> I bristle a little bit at the characterization of "antivax, sovereign citizen, fear of radio frequencies, or extreme religion" as intellectual abuse. Oh, bristle away! I accept I am being contentious. But I grew up with several friends (even at a mainstream school) whose parents were in these categories (not so much fear of RF, that’s newer). Some of this stuff takes a hell of a lot of unpicking in later life; I know two adults who grew up in a common-enough minority religion who consider what they were taught to think to be profoundly damaging to their long-term intellectual, social and mental wellbeing. To pick up on one thing to agree with: I think it’s enormously important for children to have exposure to professional teachers. To people who know how teaching works, how to adapt it, how to moderate and meta-moderate learning.