3 ms·

The above commenter is me and I say that goods and services are finite because they are. So what if there were fewer in the past and there will be more in the f

The above commenter is me and I say that goods and services are finite because they are. So what if there were fewer in the past and there will be more in the future. We live in the present and in the present goods and services are provided by people through labor which is finite at any given time. We're all competing: for housing, healthcare, and the political power to determine our material conditions. If wealth doesn't allow you to outcompete other people for those things then what the hell is it for?

Manuel_D 2y ago
> The above commenter is me and I say that goods and services are finite because they are. So what if there were fewer in the past and there will be more in the future. What you're describing here is literally the opposite of zero-sum. The total set of goods and services in increasing. It directly contradicts your claim that the accumulation of wealth necessitates the deprivation of others.
- dventimi 2y ago
  At any given time are there, or are there not, finite goods and services?
  - Manuel_D 2y ago
    At one given instant sure, but the key thing is that over time the collection of goods and services grows. Adam, Bob, and Charlie are all shipwrecked on an island. They divy up the ship's goods equally. One day, Charlie decides to build some furniture. Now he has more goods than Adam and Bob. Did he deprive others, to achieve his comparatively greater wealth? If you just looked at one snapshot of time, you'd see Charlie with more wealth than the others, though.
    - dventimi 2y ago
      > At one given instant sure [goods and services are finite] I'm glad we finally agree that wealth is finite. > the key thing is that over time the collection of goods and services grows. That's cold comfort for people who never live to see a time when they can compete for those goods and services.
      - Manuel_D 2y ago
        > I'm glad we finally agree that wealth is finite. Wrong, wealth is not finite and it can be - and is - increased. Yes, the amount of wealth at Monday, 03-Jun-24 04:12:33 UTC is going to be finite, because that's a fixed point in time. This is just a pointless tangent, because in our world time is not frozen. In our reality, where time flows, wealth is not finite and is indeed grown in absolute terms. > That's cold comfort for people who never live to see a time when they can compete for those goods and services. Yes, people who lived in preindustrial societies saw more or less fixed living standards for generations. But fortunately for us, we live in one of the most economically dynamic points of in all of human history [1]. Your statement does ring true for most of human history, but not in our age. 1. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:World_GDP_per_capita_1500_to_2003.png https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:World_GDP_per_capita...
        dventimi 2y ago
        >>> At any given time are there, or are there not, finite goods and services? >> At one given instant sure > Wrong, wealth is not finite Perhaps you could make up your mind. > Yes, people who lived in preindustrial societies saw more or less fixed living standards for generations. But fortunately for us, we live in one of the most economically dynamic points of in all of human history [1]. Your statement does ring true for most of human history, but not in our age. These people do not live in a preindustrial society. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/mar/28/poverty-racism-gary-indiana-factory-jobs https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/mar/28/poverty-raci...
        Manuel_D 2y ago
        At any one given instant in time, the planets have just one position around the sun. Does that mean orbital paths are a lie? The amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere at any one point in time is fixed. At a particular instant in time, there is an exact number of CO2 molecules in the atmosphere. And that number is fixed and doesn't change, unless you pick a different timestamp. Does that mean we can just keep burning fossil fuels and the amount of carbon dioxide doesn't change? No, because time isn't frozen. We don't live in a world where time is fixed. Seriously, I can't believe how much time I've wasted on this.

Manuel_D 2y ago

> The above commenter is me and I say that goods and services are finite because they are. So what if there were fewer in the past and there will be more in the future. What you're describing here is literally the opposite of zero-sum. The total set of goods and services in increasing. It directly contradicts your claim that the accumulation of wealth necessitates the deprivation of others.

dventimi 2y ago
At any given time are there, or are there not, finite goods and services?
- Manuel_D 2y ago
  At one given instant sure, but the key thing is that over time the collection of goods and services grows. Adam, Bob, and Charlie are all shipwrecked on an island. They divy up the ship's goods equally. One day, Charlie decides to build some furniture. Now he has more goods than Adam and Bob. Did he deprive others, to achieve his comparatively greater wealth? If you just looked at one snapshot of time, you'd see Charlie with more wealth than the others, though.
  - dventimi 2y ago
    > At one given instant sure [goods and services are finite] I'm glad we finally agree that wealth is finite. > the key thing is that over time the collection of goods and services grows. That's cold comfort for people who never live to see a time when they can compete for those goods and services.
    - Manuel_D 2y ago
      > I'm glad we finally agree that wealth is finite. Wrong, wealth is not finite and it can be - and is - increased. Yes, the amount of wealth at Monday, 03-Jun-24 04:12:33 UTC is going to be finite, because that's a fixed point in time. This is just a pointless tangent, because in our world time is not frozen. In our reality, where time flows, wealth is not finite and is indeed grown in absolute terms. > That's cold comfort for people who never live to see a time when they can compete for those goods and services. Yes, people who lived in preindustrial societies saw more or less fixed living standards for generations. But fortunately for us, we live in one of the most economically dynamic points of in all of human history [1]. Your statement does ring true for most of human history, but not in our age. 1. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:World_GDP_per_capita_1500_to_2003.png https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:World_GDP_per_capita...
      - dventimi 2y ago
        >>> At any given time are there, or are there not, finite goods and services? >> At one given instant sure > Wrong, wealth is not finite Perhaps you could make up your mind. > Yes, people who lived in preindustrial societies saw more or less fixed living standards for generations. But fortunately for us, we live in one of the most economically dynamic points of in all of human history [1]. Your statement does ring true for most of human history, but not in our age. These people do not live in a preindustrial society. https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/mar/28/poverty-racism-gary-indiana-factory-jobs https://www.theguardian.com/society/2017/mar/28/poverty-raci...
        Manuel_D 2y ago
        At any one given instant in time, the planets have just one position around the sun. Does that mean orbital paths are a lie? The amount of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere at any one point in time is fixed. At a particular instant in time, there is an exact number of CO2 molecules in the atmosphere. And that number is fixed and doesn't change, unless you pick a different timestamp. Does that mean we can just keep burning fossil fuels and the amount of carbon dioxide doesn't change? No, because time isn't frozen. We don't live in a world where time is fixed. Seriously, I can't believe how much time I've wasted on this.