5 ms·

> I also personally don't want to live in a world where a significant portion of people don't know basic history As quizzes on late night talk shows have shown

by Kamq 2y ago

> I also personally don't want to live in a world where a significant portion of people don't know basic history As quizzes on late night talk shows have shown for the past 20+ years, the current education system doesn't accomplish this. Additionally basic numeracy drops of _severely_ after leaving school, which means a majority of people aren't really absorbing anything beyond arithmetic on the math side.

vundercind 2y ago
The loss of numeracy also reflects the vast majority of adults never using high school math or greater… like, ever, at all. I used to be Ok at math. I would now fail any math test past 10th grade (forget college), and I’m not so confident about 8th or 9th either. I also used to be pretty good at French. I’ve lost most of it. Rarely having a reason to use a skill means you lose it.
- bradleyjg 2y ago
  So why do we spend enormous amounts of time and money teaching people things we know most will quickly lose?
  - vundercind 2y ago
    Ask the folks who set the math curriculum. If it were up to me nearly all math in school would be application-first and exceptions would be carved off into separate classes, presented very differently, and mostly not required.
    - samaltmanfried 2y ago
      Do you think high school students are qualified to decide for themselves whether they'll need math later in life? I never imagined having the kind of career I ended up with. I always thought I'd work as a writer. I ended up as a software engineer.
      - vundercind 2y ago
        No, but I think we could make math more useful and less unpleasant for most students by focusing on applications with just a little time for proofs or whatever in case that really piques some student’s interest. I doubt this would discourage many kids who’ll go on to become math majors, and it’d serve everyone else much better. You could still cover a lot of the same stuff. That’s my guess, anyway.
  - secstate 2y ago
    Because we've inverted the pyramid. School enables people to work and make money. Education is a side effect of the daycare, and unless you go home to motivated and curious parents, likely the best you can hope for is they get socialized enough to not chronically get fired in pretty monotonous careers.
  - atomicnumber3 2y ago
    Because even if you can't literally rattle off the stuff o to a 10th grade algebra exam, you remember the general gist and some of the details. I could not do a line integral right now but I know it exists, what it's for, and if I ever had a programming problem that was a line integral, I would remember it and be able to Google "line integral Wikipedia". There is also, in my opinion, great benefit to just training your brain. Even if you forget all the details, I think someone who learned calculus and then forgot it is going to generally be in a better place to handle any general mathematics than someone equal who never learned calculus at all.
  - Retric 2y ago
    People use different aspects of their education and it’s vastly faster to pick something up the second time. So you may have never used a given lesson, but other people in your class may have found it really helpful. Sometimes going a few steps deeper helps you retain some useful bit of info. I ended up making useful of various bits of chemistry decades after taking the class, but understanding the basics was still helpful. Finally basing things on utility is just a prediction. Some things that seemed useful turn out less so as technology filled in a gap.
  - voisin 2y ago
    To filter people out from opportunities.
    - vundercind 2y ago
      I mean… I don’t know that many people but, even so, I know a couple who are in most ways smarter than me and who’d be very-capably contributing a ton more to the economy if math classes hadn’t blocked them from it. They’d have been way above median at a ton of important jobs, but weren’t allowed to do that because they were bad at, specifically, some math they didn’t need for those jobs. No degree, so, life path permanently altered in a way bad for both them and all the rest of us. If I know a couple, there are probably many such folks. I’ve not seen the same thing happen with any other subject.
  - watwut 2y ago
    The difference is that if you knew it and lost it, you can relearn it pretty fast. If you never knew it, it takes massive amount of effort. The person who would fail that math or French conversation right now, would be able to get up to speed in days, weeks or months depending on what exactly you want if needed. However, learning French from nothing would take years again.
redeeman 2y ago
> which means a majority of people aren't really absorbing anything beyond arithmetic on the math side. which is probably happening in spite of school :)
SteveNuts 2y ago
Let’s not pretend those interviews aren’t heavily edited to create an “look how dumb everyone is” narrative, if not outright fabricated.
- Kamq 2y ago
  On one hand, this is fair. On the other hand, when 19% of high school graduates are functionally illiterate, I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say that the system is obviously not doing what it says it is.
  - freeopinion 2y ago
    Out of curiosity, what do you perceive the system to say it is doing? I see statistics on number of meals served, students per classroom, faculty per student, $/student, % who graduate, % who get admitted to college, average salary per graduate, number of students enrolled, number of employees, various budget shortfall numbers and other indicators of money spent, athletic win/loss records, operating hours when students should be supervised by a professional, and lots and lots of other stuff the system says it does. Are you saying that none of these statements are true? Or are you suggesting that the system claims to be instilling some level of competency in various subjects? Or perhaps you meant that the system is not doing what it _aspires_ to do. Or perhaps what you aspire for it to do.
    - Kamq 2y ago
      > Or are you suggesting that the system claims to be instilling some level of competency in various subjects? I am. Otherwise why would there be standardized tests to attempt to measure this? There's use in the education as a public babysitting service/meal delivery for young children, but that its it's main benefit, we should radically alter the way it's all set up. It could be radically cheaper as well as destroy way fewer children's love of learning.
  - watwut 2y ago
    > 19% of high school graduates are functionally illiterate That bunch in encompassing people with massive learning disabilities including mental retardation, neglected kids and kids from severely disadvantaged situations. That same exact bunch wont have better results when being homeschooled, with possible exception of some learning disabilities where homeschooling parent still needs a lot of support.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]
defrost 2y ago
Have you tried watching Only Connect inside? Some televised "quizzes" are picked through for the dumbest possible answers (eg: Australian late night comedy shows doing VoxPop quizzes asking 'random' US citizens to name a country starting with the letter 'U'), other quiz shows audition contestents to select a pool of bright people. Public schools or home schools should ideally teach about innate bias in sample selections.
guhcampos 2y ago
I don't think many highly trained professionals, scientists and professors do online talk show quizzes. You're basing your argument on a sample strongly biased towards mediocrity.
- deleted 2y ago
  [deleted]
readthenotes1 2y ago
Good thing you put the + in 20+.

by Kamq 2y ago

vundercind 2y ago

The loss of numeracy also reflects the vast majority of adults never using high school math or greater… like, ever, at all. I used to be Ok at math. I would now fail any math test past 10th grade (forget college), and I’m not so confident about 8th or 9th either. I also used to be pretty good at French. I’ve lost most of it. Rarely having a reason to use a skill means you lose it.

bradleyjg 2y ago
So why do we spend enormous amounts of time and money teaching people things we know most will quickly lose?
- vundercind 2y ago
  Ask the folks who set the math curriculum. If it were up to me nearly all math in school would be application-first and exceptions would be carved off into separate classes, presented very differently, and mostly not required.
  - samaltmanfried 2y ago
    Do you think high school students are qualified to decide for themselves whether they'll need math later in life? I never imagined having the kind of career I ended up with. I always thought I'd work as a writer. I ended up as a software engineer.
    - vundercind 2y ago
      No, but I think we could make math more useful and less unpleasant for most students by focusing on applications with just a little time for proofs or whatever in case that really piques some student’s interest. I doubt this would discourage many kids who’ll go on to become math majors, and it’d serve everyone else much better. You could still cover a lot of the same stuff. That’s my guess, anyway.
- secstate 2y ago
  Because we've inverted the pyramid. School enables people to work and make money. Education is a side effect of the daycare, and unless you go home to motivated and curious parents, likely the best you can hope for is they get socialized enough to not chronically get fired in pretty monotonous careers.
- atomicnumber3 2y ago
  Because even if you can't literally rattle off the stuff o to a 10th grade algebra exam, you remember the general gist and some of the details. I could not do a line integral right now but I know it exists, what it's for, and if I ever had a programming problem that was a line integral, I would remember it and be able to Google "line integral Wikipedia". There is also, in my opinion, great benefit to just training your brain. Even if you forget all the details, I think someone who learned calculus and then forgot it is going to generally be in a better place to handle any general mathematics than someone equal who never learned calculus at all.
- Retric 2y ago
  People use different aspects of their education and it’s vastly faster to pick something up the second time. So you may have never used a given lesson, but other people in your class may have found it really helpful. Sometimes going a few steps deeper helps you retain some useful bit of info. I ended up making useful of various bits of chemistry decades after taking the class, but understanding the basics was still helpful. Finally basing things on utility is just a prediction. Some things that seemed useful turn out less so as technology filled in a gap.
- voisin 2y ago
  To filter people out from opportunities.
  - vundercind 2y ago
    I mean… I don’t know that many people but, even so, I know a couple who are in most ways smarter than me and who’d be very-capably contributing a ton more to the economy if math classes hadn’t blocked them from it. They’d have been way above median at a ton of important jobs, but weren’t allowed to do that because they were bad at, specifically, some math they didn’t need for those jobs. No degree, so, life path permanently altered in a way bad for both them and all the rest of us. If I know a couple, there are probably many such folks. I’ve not seen the same thing happen with any other subject.
- watwut 2y ago
  The difference is that if you knew it and lost it, you can relearn it pretty fast. If you never knew it, it takes massive amount of effort. The person who would fail that math or French conversation right now, would be able to get up to speed in days, weeks or months depending on what exactly you want if needed. However, learning French from nothing would take years again.

redeeman 2y ago

> which means a majority of people aren't really absorbing anything beyond arithmetic on the math side. which is probably happening in spite of school :)

SteveNuts 2y ago

Let’s not pretend those interviews aren’t heavily edited to create an “look how dumb everyone is” narrative, if not outright fabricated.

Kamq 2y ago
On one hand, this is fair. On the other hand, when 19% of high school graduates are functionally illiterate, I don't think it's too much of a stretch to say that the system is obviously not doing what it says it is.
- freeopinion 2y ago
  Out of curiosity, what do you perceive the system to say it is doing? I see statistics on number of meals served, students per classroom, faculty per student, $/student, % who graduate, % who get admitted to college, average salary per graduate, number of students enrolled, number of employees, various budget shortfall numbers and other indicators of money spent, athletic win/loss records, operating hours when students should be supervised by a professional, and lots and lots of other stuff the system says it does. Are you saying that none of these statements are true? Or are you suggesting that the system claims to be instilling some level of competency in various subjects? Or perhaps you meant that the system is not doing what it _aspires_ to do. Or perhaps what you aspire for it to do.
  - Kamq 2y ago
    > Or are you suggesting that the system claims to be instilling some level of competency in various subjects? I am. Otherwise why would there be standardized tests to attempt to measure this? There's use in the education as a public babysitting service/meal delivery for young children, but that its it's main benefit, we should radically alter the way it's all set up. It could be radically cheaper as well as destroy way fewer children's love of learning.
- watwut 2y ago
  > 19% of high school graduates are functionally illiterate That bunch in encompassing people with massive learning disabilities including mental retardation, neglected kids and kids from severely disadvantaged situations. That same exact bunch wont have better results when being homeschooled, with possible exception of some learning disabilities where homeschooling parent still needs a lot of support.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]

defrost 2y ago

Have you tried watching Only Connect inside? Some televised "quizzes" are picked through for the dumbest possible answers (eg: Australian late night comedy shows doing VoxPop quizzes asking 'random' US citizens to name a country starting with the letter 'U'), other quiz shows audition contestents to select a pool of bright people. Public schools or home schools should ideally teach about innate bias in sample selections.

guhcampos 2y ago

I don't think many highly trained professionals, scientists and professors do online talk show quizzes. You're basing your argument on a sample strongly biased towards mediocrity.

deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

readthenotes1 2y ago

Good thing you put the + in 20+.