4 ms·

Just let Signal operate via Satellites and you are fine: https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weltraumtheorie https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weltraumtheorie

EGreg 2y ago
No, you’re not fine. They can ban that as well. The only way anything can continue working in practice is if it’s decentralized, and served by different websites secured bu https rather than one app in one app store. Hard to take them all down. Perhaps Moxie Marlinspike now better appreciates decentralization behind messengers. I have written here years ago as a response to him exactly this scenario: https://community.intercoin.app/t/web3-moxie-signal-telegram-and-why-decentralization-matters/2230 https://community.intercoin.app/t/web3-moxie-signal-telegram... The thing with https of course is that the governments can insist that browsers include their backdoored certificates. But the browsers are large enough that it’s difficult to get them to do it. China’s Great Firewall probably can. But in order for that to happen they have to prevent packets encrypted with the non-backdoored certificate chain from being routed. That requires serious control over all the networks. This is partly why I started Qbix. So people can host whatever they want on computers of their choice. Without this decentralization, the governments are two steps away from mandating ALL your voice conversations are scanned, transcribed and analyzed by AI at the edge. Microsoft Recall + message and voice scanning = 1 step away from total panopticon of everyone everywhere. And with superintelligent AIs doing precrime based on everyone’s conversations!
- hellojesus 2y ago
  If CAs start to get backdoored, people can operate a la web of trust or other asymmetric protocol where the public key is posted on a public board and the server can verify its ownership of the private key without a third party other than the public notice. More work but should be doable.
  - EGreg 2y ago
    They won’t be able to operate that over public networks in China, because the routers will drop their packets. You’d need to roll your own mesh network — definitely doable in local areas but the question is how to connect them over wider distances without going through the Great Firewall. Satellites?
    - hellojesus 2y ago
      I suppose you could use stenography or something to embed chats in pictures that are client-side scanned. I use grapheneos and can create storage scopes so that the scanning app would only have access to files I deliberately allow. Doesn't solve traffic analysis. Maybe some more advanced methods that encrypt over https could work.
      - EGreg 2y ago
        Unless a lot of people are using it, they’ll just go after anyone who is doing suspicious things like using grapheneos
        hellojesus 2y ago
        Yes, but in what way? Short of the outlaw of general computing, what could they possibly do to stop it?
    - Hoodedcrow 2y ago
      There are methods to bypass the Chinese Firewall though. the issue is getting people to use them.
      - EGreg 2y ago
        How can people use them for long if they get a knock on the door, from authorities who noticed an anomaly?
        Hoodedcrow 2y ago
  - Hoodedcrow 2y ago
    We already have this - it's called Tor and I2P.
- hcfman 2y ago
  Could there be a way to do everything in JavaScript? I imagine the problem would be in the anchors of trust.

EGreg 2y ago

No, you’re not fine. They can ban that as well. The only way anything can continue working in practice is if it’s decentralized, and served by different websites secured bu https rather than one app in one app store. Hard to take them all down. Perhaps Moxie Marlinspike now better appreciates decentralization behind messengers. I have written here years ago as a response to him exactly this scenario: https://community.intercoin.app/t/web3-moxie-signal-telegram-and-why-decentralization-matters/2230 https://community.intercoin.app/t/web3-moxie-signal-telegram... The thing with https of course is that the governments can insist that browsers include their backdoored certificates. But the browsers are large enough that it’s difficult to get them to do it. China’s Great Firewall probably can. But in order for that to happen they have to prevent packets encrypted with the non-backdoored certificate chain from being routed. That requires serious control over all the networks. This is partly why I started Qbix. So people can host whatever they want on computers of their choice. Without this decentralization, the governments are two steps away from mandating ALL your voice conversations are scanned, transcribed and analyzed by AI at the edge. Microsoft Recall + message and voice scanning = 1 step away from total panopticon of everyone everywhere. And with superintelligent AIs doing precrime based on everyone’s conversations!

hellojesus 2y ago
If CAs start to get backdoored, people can operate a la web of trust or other asymmetric protocol where the public key is posted on a public board and the server can verify its ownership of the private key without a third party other than the public notice. More work but should be doable.
- EGreg 2y ago
  They won’t be able to operate that over public networks in China, because the routers will drop their packets. You’d need to roll your own mesh network — definitely doable in local areas but the question is how to connect them over wider distances without going through the Great Firewall. Satellites?
  - hellojesus 2y ago
    I suppose you could use stenography or something to embed chats in pictures that are client-side scanned. I use grapheneos and can create storage scopes so that the scanning app would only have access to files I deliberately allow. Doesn't solve traffic analysis. Maybe some more advanced methods that encrypt over https could work.
    - EGreg 2y ago
      Unless a lot of people are using it, they’ll just go after anyone who is doing suspicious things like using grapheneos
      - hellojesus 2y ago
        Yes, but in what way? Short of the outlaw of general computing, what could they possibly do to stop it?
  - Hoodedcrow 2y ago
    There are methods to bypass the Chinese Firewall though. the issue is getting people to use them.
    - EGreg 2y ago
      How can people use them for long if they get a knock on the door, from authorities who noticed an anomaly?
      - Hoodedcrow 2y ago
- Hoodedcrow 2y ago
  We already have this - it's called Tor and I2P.
hcfman 2y ago
Could there be a way to do everything in JavaScript? I imagine the problem would be in the anchors of trust.