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At this point the problem with EVs aren’t the cars themselves. The problem is finding a way to solve range anxiety. I understand that standard EV range is ple

by _mlbt 2y ago

At this point the problem with EVs aren’t the cars themselves. The problem is finding a way to solve range anxiety. I understand that standard EV range is plenty for the vast majority of trips taken by the vast majority of people, but most people don’t want to deal with solving the edge cases that will inevitably come up multiple times in a given year. This will require either standardizing on a system for swappable batteries, dramatic improvements in fast charging infrastructure, or a generational leap in battery efficiency.

JumpCrisscross 2y ago
> the problem with EVs aren’t the cars themselves Did we read the same article? The problem was absolutely the cars.
- AlbertCory 2y ago
  Exactly. They didn't fail because customers had "range anxiety."
lttlrck 2y ago
To me it seems the "problem" shifted away (quite some time ago) from range anxiety toward to inconvenience due to charging infrastructure.
- dieselgate 2y ago
  Almost two sides of the same coin?
constantcrying 2y ago
This wasn't the problem for Fisker though. They just failed at delivering a quality product.
speedgoose 2y ago
The more realistic option is improvements in fast charging infrastructure. It’s what happened in Norway. Don’t expect big leap in battery efficiency anytime soon, and battery swapping projects tend to fail already without the standardisation challenge.
devbent 2y ago
Just rent an IC or hybrid for longer trips. If you buy a lower range battery and save 5k on the purchase price, well if you go on 2 road trips a year at $500 of rental cost per trip, you're looking at 5 year of rentals, not counting the money you save from owning an EV. On my case I saved over 12k buying "low range" EV (only around 200 miles) which is over a decade of rentals for road trips before I lose money on it, and driving an EV is so much nicer than an IC. I test drive a Lexus and chose a Chevy Bolt EUV instead because the Bolt was nicer to drive than the luxury car! (The Lexus has a better interior obviously).
- wannacboatmovie 2y ago
  Most Americans can barely afford a used car, let alone new, and you are suggesting they should rent a car at additional cost to supplant the EV they never wanted in the first place, for such obscure edge cases as "road trips"? If you are in the market for a Lexus you are by definition in the 1% of car buyers. I truly believe EVs will fade away into niche items for enthusiasts, with hybrids taking over the market. Toyota is playing the long game and is right on this one. The rush to widespread EV adoption is being spurred by activists who fail to see the big picture. There is a major lack of infrastructure problem that continues to be ignored and isn't being addressed.
  - devbent 2y ago
    > Most Americans can barely afford a used car, let alone new, and you are suggesting they should rent a car at additional cost to supplant the EV they never wanted in the first place, I am saying Americans who are choosing between buying an EV but are afraid of range limits will be just fine buying an EV with lower range and using the savings to rent a car for the times they need to go more than 300 miles at once. > If you are in the market for a Lexus you are by definition in the 1% of car buyers. The used Lexus (Hybrid!) I was looking at was 35k, the average price of a new car in America. The engine was noisy and it had the worst implementation of a hybrid drive train I'd ever seen. Anything more than the slightest press on the throttle and the gas engine kicked on, it was absurdly useless. Fwiw you can get a good EV for 18k (year or two old Chevy Bolt EV) and a brand new EV for 26k (Hyundai has a 7500 off for everyone for new Kona Electrics). > The rush to widespread EV adoption is being spurred by activists who fail to see the big picture. Somehow other counties, including huge ones like China, are not having issues with EV adoption. > I truly believe EVs will fade away into niche items for enthusiasts, EVs are simpler to make and have far less mechanical complexity. Battery prices are dropping every year and there is an obscene amount of research going into ensuring that trend continues. Once battery prices drop a bit more EVs will be far cheaper to build, buy, and maintain. I actually looked at a plug in hybrid, the Kia Niro EV. A boring compact car with a hybrid drive train that you can plug in. $40k USD for a compact Kia. The regular model is around 30k, the hybrid 35, and the plug in hybrid was 40. Or, buy a brand new EV for $26k. How exactly so hybrids make any sense? They are a psychological crutch against fears of range anxiety. But again, ultimately none of this matters because EVs keep getting cheaper every year and they'll continue to get cheaper. As a species we've been making DC motors for almost 140 years, we are really damn good at making them reliable and efficient. > There is a major lack of infrastructure problem that continues to be ignored and isn't being addressed. In q2 of 2023 over 1000 fast chargers were installed in the US. To create a proper growth curve for EVs, deployment doesn't have to be evenly spread out across the US. If you replace 30% of cars in the top 5 US metro areas, you've created a huge market. Heck just solve charging in NYC and SF. Then do other dense cities (Chicago, Boston, etc) and then the market becomes big enough that it is self sustaining w/o needing government help.

by _mlbt 2y ago

JumpCrisscross 2y ago

> the problem with EVs aren’t the cars themselves Did we read the same article? The problem was absolutely the cars.

AlbertCory 2y ago
Exactly. They didn't fail because customers had "range anxiety."

lttlrck 2y ago

To me it seems the "problem" shifted away (quite some time ago) from range anxiety toward to inconvenience due to charging infrastructure.

dieselgate 2y ago
Almost two sides of the same coin?

constantcrying 2y ago

This wasn't the problem for Fisker though. They just failed at delivering a quality product.

speedgoose 2y ago

The more realistic option is improvements in fast charging infrastructure. It’s what happened in Norway. Don’t expect big leap in battery efficiency anytime soon, and battery swapping projects tend to fail already without the standardisation challenge.

devbent 2y ago

Just rent an IC or hybrid for longer trips. If you buy a lower range battery and save 5k on the purchase price, well if you go on 2 road trips a year at $500 of rental cost per trip, you're looking at 5 year of rentals, not counting the money you save from owning an EV. On my case I saved over 12k buying "low range" EV (only around 200 miles) which is over a decade of rentals for road trips before I lose money on it, and driving an EV is so much nicer than an IC. I test drive a Lexus and chose a Chevy Bolt EUV instead because the Bolt was nicer to drive than the luxury car! (The Lexus has a better interior obviously).

wannacboatmovie 2y ago
Most Americans can barely afford a used car, let alone new, and you are suggesting they should rent a car at additional cost to supplant the EV they never wanted in the first place, for such obscure edge cases as "road trips"? If you are in the market for a Lexus you are by definition in the 1% of car buyers. I truly believe EVs will fade away into niche items for enthusiasts, with hybrids taking over the market. Toyota is playing the long game and is right on this one. The rush to widespread EV adoption is being spurred by activists who fail to see the big picture. There is a major lack of infrastructure problem that continues to be ignored and isn't being addressed.
- devbent 2y ago
  > Most Americans can barely afford a used car, let alone new, and you are suggesting they should rent a car at additional cost to supplant the EV they never wanted in the first place, I am saying Americans who are choosing between buying an EV but are afraid of range limits will be just fine buying an EV with lower range and using the savings to rent a car for the times they need to go more than 300 miles at once. > If you are in the market for a Lexus you are by definition in the 1% of car buyers. The used Lexus (Hybrid!) I was looking at was 35k, the average price of a new car in America. The engine was noisy and it had the worst implementation of a hybrid drive train I'd ever seen. Anything more than the slightest press on the throttle and the gas engine kicked on, it was absurdly useless. Fwiw you can get a good EV for 18k (year or two old Chevy Bolt EV) and a brand new EV for 26k (Hyundai has a 7500 off for everyone for new Kona Electrics). > The rush to widespread EV adoption is being spurred by activists who fail to see the big picture. Somehow other counties, including huge ones like China, are not having issues with EV adoption. > I truly believe EVs will fade away into niche items for enthusiasts, EVs are simpler to make and have far less mechanical complexity. Battery prices are dropping every year and there is an obscene amount of research going into ensuring that trend continues. Once battery prices drop a bit more EVs will be far cheaper to build, buy, and maintain. I actually looked at a plug in hybrid, the Kia Niro EV. A boring compact car with a hybrid drive train that you can plug in. $40k USD for a compact Kia. The regular model is around 30k, the hybrid 35, and the plug in hybrid was 40. Or, buy a brand new EV for $26k. How exactly so hybrids make any sense? They are a psychological crutch against fears of range anxiety. But again, ultimately none of this matters because EVs keep getting cheaper every year and they'll continue to get cheaper. As a species we've been making DC motors for almost 140 years, we are really damn good at making them reliable and efficient. > There is a major lack of infrastructure problem that continues to be ignored and isn't being addressed. In q2 of 2023 over 1000 fast chargers were installed in the US. To create a proper growth curve for EVs, deployment doesn't have to be evenly spread out across the US. If you replace 30% of cars in the top 5 US metro areas, you've created a huge market. Heck just solve charging in NYC and SF. Then do other dense cities (Chicago, Boston, etc) and then the market becomes big enough that it is self sustaining w/o needing government help.