3 ms·

> On the surface, it would be weird for ketones to improve brain activity - after all "keto flu" is a thing, and it is definitely is not a state of high perform

by fl0ki 2y ago

> On the surface, it would be weird for ketones to improve brain activity - after all "keto flu" is a thing, and it is definitely is not a state of high performance. Keto flu is from a low level of ketones, not a high level. Once enough ketones become available there is no more keto flu. From there most people feel at least normal, and many feel a bit better than normal because the cycles of both energy and satiety are smoothed out by the change in fuel sources. > And if ketones were that healthy then diabetics would the the healthiest people of all. Diabetics have health complications precisely because they cannot moderate their blood glucose, with or without ketones. Ketones do not regulate blood glucose, insulin does. Unlike glucose, excess ketones are harmlessly urinated out, they do not need insulin to process them. Glucose in the blood is toxic [1] if it isn't metabolised because of lack of insulin, and even most diabetics consume enough carbohydrates for this to be a risk. There is a clear relationship between availability of insulin and safe levels of glucose consumption, in fact injecting insulin is usually the first intervention if blood glucose is at dangerously high levels. Search for insulin in that paper. Ketones don't enter into this picture at all as either a toxin or the solution to toxicity. Precisely the point is that ketones can substitute for most of your glucose needs without risking toxicity like glucose does. If all of that isn't enough, diabetics often do better following a ketogenic diet [2], not worse. When you can't naturally produce enough insulin to process the glucose you consume for daily energy, producing ketones instead is a safe workaround which your body performs naturally. What part of that is evidence for ketones themselves being the problem? [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2738809/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2738809/ [2] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31336509/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/31336509/

SamoyedFurFluff 2y ago
> diabetics often do better following a ketogenic diet [2] Your citation is a single case study over a short period of time. It does not support your claim of “often”. This is deceptive citation and undermines your arguments.
- fl0ki 2y ago
  Fair enough, thanks for the criticism. Here a few more studies: https://nutritionandmetabolism.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1743-7075-2-34 https://nutritionandmetabolism.biomedcentral.com/articles/10... > The LCKD improved glycemic control in patients with type 2 diabetes such that diabetes medications were discontinued or reduced in most participants. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22673594/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22673594/ > The LCD and LCKD had beneficial effects on all the parameters examined. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6024764/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6024764/ > LCD can improve blood glucose more than LFD in Chinese patients with T2DM. It can also regulate blood lipid, reduce BMI, and decrease insulin dose in patients with T2DM. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34338787/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34338787/ > The VLCK diet appears to control glycemia and decrease body weight for up to 6 months in people with obesity and diabetes. Beneficial changes in serum triglycerides and high-density lipoprotein cholesterol, along with reductions in antidiabetic medications, continued in the VLCK group until 12 months. However, the quality of currently available evidence is not sufficient to recommend VLCK diets. A major limitation of the VLCK diet is patients' lack of adherence to carbohydrate restriction. So sure, there are issues with adherence and the volume & quality of data here. That doesn't invalidate the trends seen across every study that looks into this. It's more than one study and, within each study, it indeed seems to benefit most participants.
  - SamoyedFurFluff 2y ago
    This is much better, thanks. I’m far more convinced now.
dcow 2y ago
Furthermore there is some indication that people experiencing type 2 diabetes are suffering from essentially a worn out pancreas. In other words their insulin resistance is a result of constantly eating more sugars/carbs than the organ can keep up with. Switching to a keto diet instead of supplementing insulin gives the organ a break where it can actually start to heal and return to a more normal insulin production routine, ultimately meaning that these people can eat a donut occasionally without requiring the insulin supplement like they otherwise would with a traditional treatment plan where their body hasn’t been given a break from the onslaught of glucose. This can be life changing for a type 2 diabetic, because their lifestyle returns to normal outside of paying attention to their diet.
- layla5alive 2y ago
  Insulin resistance is a quality of the cells in your body which cease responding to insulin at their receptors. So higher levels of insulin fail to reduce blood sugar levels. This is the hallmark of T2D. You are confusing this with beta cell function, which also becomes impaired in many T2D people, where the islet cells become damaged, insulin production is subsequently impaired as well, this is a later stage effect in T2D progression. T2D likely manifests from prolonged energy surplus leading to oxidative damage to cells and accumulation of excess fat stores, particularly visceral fat stores in the organs - the cell damage and overfull visceral and sometimes subcutaneous fat stores both lead to hormonal and epigenetic changes and directly to insulin resistance. That's still oversimplified, but it's a useful model.
deleted 2y ago
[deleted]

by fl0ki 2y ago

SamoyedFurFluff 2y ago

> diabetics often do better following a ketogenic diet [2] Your citation is a single case study over a short period of time. It does not support your claim of “often”. This is deceptive citation and undermines your arguments.

fl0ki 2y ago
Fair enough, thanks for the criticism. Here a few more studies: https://nutritionandmetabolism.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1743-7075-2-34 https://nutritionandmetabolism.biomedcentral.com/articles/10... > The LCKD improved glycemic control in patients with type 2 diabetes such that diabetes medications were discontinued or reduced in most participants. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22673594/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22673594/ > The LCD and LCKD had beneficial effects on all the parameters examined. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6024764/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6024764/ > LCD can improve blood glucose more than LFD in Chinese patients with T2DM. It can also regulate blood lipid, reduce BMI, and decrease insulin dose in patients with T2DM. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34338787/ https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/34338787/ > The VLCK diet appears to control glycemia and decrease body weight for up to 6 months in people with obesity and diabetes. Beneficial changes in serum triglycerides and high-density lipoprotein cholesterol, along with reductions in antidiabetic medications, continued in the VLCK group until 12 months. However, the quality of currently available evidence is not sufficient to recommend VLCK diets. A major limitation of the VLCK diet is patients' lack of adherence to carbohydrate restriction. So sure, there are issues with adherence and the volume & quality of data here. That doesn't invalidate the trends seen across every study that looks into this. It's more than one study and, within each study, it indeed seems to benefit most participants.
- SamoyedFurFluff 2y ago
  This is much better, thanks. I’m far more convinced now.

dcow 2y ago

Furthermore there is some indication that people experiencing type 2 diabetes are suffering from essentially a worn out pancreas. In other words their insulin resistance is a result of constantly eating more sugars/carbs than the organ can keep up with. Switching to a keto diet instead of supplementing insulin gives the organ a break where it can actually start to heal and return to a more normal insulin production routine, ultimately meaning that these people can eat a donut occasionally without requiring the insulin supplement like they otherwise would with a traditional treatment plan where their body hasn’t been given a break from the onslaught of glucose. This can be life changing for a type 2 diabetic, because their lifestyle returns to normal outside of paying attention to their diet.

layla5alive 2y ago
Insulin resistance is a quality of the cells in your body which cease responding to insulin at their receptors. So higher levels of insulin fail to reduce blood sugar levels. This is the hallmark of T2D. You are confusing this with beta cell function, which also becomes impaired in many T2D people, where the islet cells become damaged, insulin production is subsequently impaired as well, this is a later stage effect in T2D progression. T2D likely manifests from prolonged energy surplus leading to oxidative damage to cells and accumulation of excess fat stores, particularly visceral fat stores in the organs - the cell damage and overfull visceral and sometimes subcutaneous fat stores both lead to hormonal and epigenetic changes and directly to insulin resistance. That's still oversimplified, but it's a useful model.

deleted 2y ago

[deleted]